German camouflage colors.

Dan_San_Abbott · 4 July 2005, 06:33 PM

Jumpinjan:
I was wondering if I were to give the Methuen codes for various camouflage schemes, i.e. Pfalz D.XII fuselage, could you post the color chips with the color mix values? Like we did for the Ju.D.I, Cl.I. Also this is to be a place to post colors, with no conflicts or heated discussions. If someone has a request, I (we) will attempt to post the colors for that particular aircraft.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

jumpinjan · 5 July 2005, 04:20 AM

Dan-San,
I loaned my book out, but I will get it back. Maybe in one week I will have it and then I would be pleased to collaberate with you on posting the chips on this board.
Now that we have this markings catagory, I recommend the moderators might move ALL the past Methuen posts to here.

Jim52 · 5 July 2005, 11:35 AM

It might be nice if the moderators could set it up as a "sticky".

Jim

EricGoedkoop · 5 July 2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpinjan

Now that we have this markings catagory, I recommend the moderators might move ALL the past Methuen posts to here.

Jan -

I think Scott moved a lot of them here when he created the category, but if there are some that were left behind just let me know which they are and I'll move them.

Eric

Patrick · 6 July 2005, 01:09 PM

Dan,

I think your idea has much merit, especially since color questions arise regularly on this forum.

One of the problems with publishing this information for reproduction on a computer display (or printing it) is that the color component data can yield quite different results on two different displays or printers. Bringing two different systems into color space synchronization is a topic that is far outside the scope of a quick message -- but it's not an impossibility.

I'd like to assist you and Jan in this project, especially since I have my own requests that I hope you can answer

. I have a color-calibrated system, am using PhotoShop CS2 and I have done the conversion between Methuen codes and RGB-CMYK color spaces (I think successfully, because at least my results independently matched what Mark Miller came up with for five-color lozenge). Tonight I'll send you an email with tables that I've built for 4- and 5- color lozenge. In any event, I'd like your opinion on this work & I've been meaning to get in contact with you regarding it.

Finally, here's a few requests that I'd like to see published --

1. What are the colors for the green-mauve camo seen on some of the very early Pfalz D.IIIs?

2. There is a very famous Pfalz D.III from J.10 that was shot down and captured relatively intact by the British. Several well-published photos of it exist. I don't recall the pilot's name, but I believe that it was assigned serial number G.111 by the British. The plane had a green tail, the rudder of which survives in the collection of the RAF Museum. Do you know what shade of green the tail was painted? The color range given in the J.10 Data File Special (Methuen codes) do not seem to match the tone of the tail color in the b&w photos.

thx!

Dan_San_Abbott · 8 July 2005, 11:48 AM

Patrick:
First of al I have received you spread sheets. It is my intent to provide the color codes for, 4 and 5 color day printed fabric, dark pattern 5 color and the 5 color night pattern. Also the naval 3 color hexagon pattern. Ray Rimmel has the values too dark.
The colors used on fuselages of various aircraft. All the colors will have RBG values, so anyone can get the precise color. This is where Jan comes in.
He has the Methuen Handbook of Color, from that he will provide the RBG values.
In regard to the early Jasta 10 camouflaged Pfalz D.III, I can offer they were camouflaged in Deep green and mauve. The dominant color is deep green and the lesser color is greyish lilac. I have arbitrarily used deep green, 27D8 and greyish lilac, 15B2. In selecting these colors, I used the standard green table and the lilac/mauve table and matched the average grey values in several photos. We do not have fabric samples to work from.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Patrick · 8 July 2005, 12:07 PM

Dan, I have a full copy of the Methuen handbook that has been scanned into pdf format. The problem with it is that each plate has some colors that are out of gamut for a RGB monitor, so it's not possible to do a true "digital version" of the plates that will accurately display all of the colors.

But for the color codes of interest, this is not an issue since the book does provide a full set of Munsell codes for each chip on the Methuen color plates. So, I can derive the conversion by starting with a Methuen code, looking up the corresponding Munsell code, then use the GretagMacbeth Munsell conversion program to obtain accurate RGB and CMYK codes (and LAB too, if that was of interest to some of the European readers).

I think it would remove any ambiguity if this full set of codes was provided for each color (Methuen - Munsell - RGB - CMYK - LAB).

Thanks for the information about Rimmel's work -- what is your opinion of the NASM data?

mossie · 8 July 2005, 12:42 PM

Colours are important to us all, I did an early attempt to match colours, but I'm aware of its shortfalls. Any info that would improve my data sets would be most welcome.

jumpinjan · 8 July 2005, 05:57 PM

Patrick,
You might want to test the validity of the cross-ref of Methuen-to-Munsell-to-RGB somehow. Perhaps conduct some comparisions? I wonder if there is any modelling behind the Methuen-to-Munsell, but I suspect its a just a look-up table in the GretagMacbeth conversion program (I also have it as well as earlier versions) that the programmer just made up? I don't know?

Dan_San_Abbott · 8 July 2005, 06:44 PM

Jan and Patrick:
This sound great, we'll make this a collaborative effort and maybe set the standard color reference.
Blue skies,
Dan-San