SE-5a color...

John Masters · 22 July 2005, 09:07 PM

Gents, what is the color of this SE-5a from Egypt? Is it CDL or is it aluminum dope? I found another photo of another bird that was more silver, but this one could be either one. I'm stumped. Thanks.

From the Factory on the hill,
John

TomVrille · 23 July 2005, 11:44 AM

According to The S.E.5 File, the B615 was assigned to the 5th Fighting School at Heliopolis, and was involved in a crash on 6 September 1918 with no stated disposition. As Flying School aircraft were generally granted more latitude with regard to finish than were aircraft from an operational squadron, any assessment would remain somewhat speculative.

John Masters · 23 July 2005, 02:05 PM

So Tom, what were the finishes of the other Egyptian-based SE-5a? Was there a uniform color for the combat units?

John

Colin A Owers · 23 July 2005, 08:17 PM

Most of what I have read states that the S.E.5a was P.C.10, however in a RAAF document on the purchase of Fairey IIID floatplanes, refering to the aluminium finish, the writer - I think it was Lawrence Wackett - states that in Palestine they found P.C.12 as a better finish than P.C.10 for sun protection and recommended it for the IIIDs. I would think that it is possible that any aircraft that served some time in the Midddle East could have ended up in P.C.12, and of course we can't tell from photographs.

This does not help with the colours of the aircraft you are looking at, but you can never be too dogmatic about WWI finishes.

Colin A Owers

John Masters · 23 July 2005, 10:54 PM

Very true, Colin. I've seen a few profiles from Palestine with a PC-12 finish, and that would seem correct. I think I'll stick to that idea. Thanks.

From the Factory on the hill,
John

TomVrille · 24 July 2005, 08:25 AM

John -

As best I can determine, the usual finish for SE5 combat units in Palestine (e.g. 111sqn, 145sqn) was PC12 for upper surfaces, with clear dope and clear varnish to specification V114 for undersurfaces. PC12 was generally favored over PC10 for tropical climates because it better resisted fabric damage due to prolonged exposure to sunlight. The percentage of lampblack in PC12 was less than that in PC10, but it is virtually impossible to tell the difference from monochrome photos of the period.

Getting back to the original question, all of the overall aluminum dope finishes I have uncovered were post-war, applied to aircraft released to former allies such as Australia and South Africa.

John Masters · 24 July 2005, 08:51 AM

Thanks Tom. I think I'll stick with PC12 for my build. On the subject of silver dope, I think the picture I saw was from a post-war Canadian SE-5a, from the link supplied earlier. Thyanks a lot for all the help. I think it might make a decent diorama--Some angry Bedou and their camels chasing after a quickly rising SE-5a, or something like that.

From the Factory on the hill,
John

greenknight · 27 July 2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDCMasters

On the subject of silver dope, I think the picture I saw was from a post-war Canadian SE-5a, from the link supplied earlier.

John,

Just to clarify, the SE5a picture you posted above is said by the website owner to have been taken in Egypt. Quoting from the website ( http://www.kw.igs.net/~brianj/index.htm):

"Scenes from Royal Flying Corps Flying School in Ismailia, Egypt, 1917-1918
Konnie took all these pictures while he was in the Royal Flying Corps in Egypt, during 1917-1918. The camera he used is now in possession of one of Konnie's grandsons. The original negatives of these are now in the National Photographic Library in Ottawa, Canada and copies are available to the public. Go to Archives and use 'Johannesson' as the keyword. "

"Konnie" is Konrad Johannesson, the grandfather of the website owner Brian Johannesson. I find the collection of photos fascinating, and some of the pictures taken around the airfield should be a great resource for your diorama.

I've also been puzzling over whether the SE5a is in CDL or silver, and the strong light and shadows from the hangar don't help us much. One possible "clue" is the fuselage roundel; to me the middle ring looks like it may have been left the same color as the rest of the fuselage rather than painted white. If so, this would seem to be more likely to be done on a CDL rather than a silver plane. The fuselage roundel on a Nie. 17 on another photo in this collection looks to me to have the same feature: http://www.winnipegfalcons.com/egypt...aft/plane2.jpg

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions. Maybe I'm a little biased, as I've often thought translucent CDL would look neat on a flying-model of an SE5a.

John Masters · 27 July 2005, 12:09 PM

On that subject---and more...I checked my botle of MisterKit PC12. I am very unimpressed with the Misterkit paints, BTW. they don't cover very well and seem to be inconsistant in thickness. I find they are only good for small parts like struts...Anyway...

The PC12 from MisterKit is not like any of the PC12 that I have seen. It has a shade much closer to Raw Sienna than what I know to be correct. I am using an Humbrol #72 (Raw Sienna) for the main fuse and then I plan on brushing thin coats of a darker brown over that. I hope to simulate a sun-worn and faded PC12 by doing so.

GK--I do like that Canadian website. There are tons of other aircraft pictures, mostly civilian, that are interesting as well. The Egyptian pics will be very useful, especially the one with the camel.

Thanks again.

John Masters

EricGoedkoop · 27 July 2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenknight

I've also been puzzling over whether the SE5a is in CDL or silver, and the strong light and shadows from the hangar don't help us much. One possible "clue" is the fuselage roundel; to me the middle ring looks like it may have been left the same color as the rest of the fuselage rather than painted white. If so, this would seem to be more likely to be done on a CDL rather than a silver plane.

I notice that the stitching on the fuselage is very dark, compared to the base color. If the plane had been painted, would it not have been painted with the fuselage side fabric in place, and therefore the stitching would have been painted as well? If so, then that would also argue in favor of CDL. Note also that the top forward cowling, radiator enclosure and chin panel are darker than the rest.

On the other hand, an all-over CDL this late in the war seems a little unusual . . . .

Bearing in mind that this machine was a trainer, it's also possible that it was painted white.