Ernst Udet's Fokker D.VII

Hi friends.

I am a newbie here and wondered if i could ask a couple of questions?

1). I am currently restoring a 1:72 scale model of Ernst Udets Fokker D.VII. Can someone please tell me if the red/white striping carried on the top wing also went under the top wing? I have seen pictures of another modellers work and this is what he has done. However, when i look at photos of the machine in question i cannot tell if it was striped or lozenge fabric.

2). Regarding the lozenge fabric. Can you please tell me if it was one piece, strips or diagonal strips, and also what colour was the ribbing tape?

3). And finally....... Can you tell me if the colour scheme in the attactched picture is accurate? No.39(HD) Squadron, North Weald. I am the historian for the North Weald Airfield Museum and none of the pictures in out archive show any F2b's with the cat artwork on the tail. Does any one have any pictures showing this?

http://kpmpresov.host.sk/kam/bif.htm

Thank you all in advance for your help. I have often browsed through this site and finally plucked up the courage to join. I look forward to chatting with you all soon.

Thanks,

Steve Thorpe
(von Groove)

[Patrick]

Hi Steve,

I'll try to answer "3." first, & get back to you on Udet's D.VII if someone else doesn't get to it first.

Short answer regarding the profile's accuracy is -- doubtful.

I checked the following publications:

British Aviation Markings of World War I by Les Rogers

Bristol Fighter, Vols. 1 & 2 by J M Bruce (Windsock Datafile Special)

Bristol Fighter in Action by Peter Cooksley, Color by Don Greer & Tom Tullis, Illustrated by Joe Sewell -- Aircraft Number 137, squadron/signal publications

British Aeroplanes, 1914-18 by J M Bruce, pp 126-143

The source of the profile is an illustration (not a photo) on the top of the back cover of the Bristol Fighter in Action. Looks like the cover art was done by Don Greer. One way to track this down is to write to the publisher and ask that your message be passed along to the artist.

I was unable to find a photo of this plane in any of the references that I searched. British Aviation Markings provides a very sparse list of flight and personal markings used by No. 39 Squadron; a black cat (or anything remotely like it) is not on the list. I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but this kind of elaborate artwork was fairly rare on British aircraft of the period so you would think that if a photo of this plane survives, at least one of the above publications would have it.

In British Aeroplanes, J M Bruce provides a table on page 142 that lists Serial Nos., Contractors, Contract Nos. and Engine Specified for the F.2A and F.2B. Since we're missing the letter code prefix, the 2262 S/N has two possibilities on Bruce's table:

D.2126 - D.2625 (only 126 delivered up to March, 1919) from National Aircraft Factory No. 3, Contract No. A.S.34276, equipped with the 200 hp Hispano-Suiza engine. If it came from this batch, the plane is almost certainly post-war, but Bruce provides an additional footnote on page 143 indicating that D.2262 saw service with No. 141 Squadron. Perhaps it was delivered to 141 post war (No. 141 saw service in Ireland after the war). Interestingly enough, there's a photo of an F.2B from 141 on page 43 of the Windsock Datafile Special, Vol. 1, that shows the plane in wartime night-fighter finish with a black cockerel outlined in white in the same position as your cat. The cockerel overpaints the area of the S/N completely. At least it's getting closer to your illustration.

E.2151 - E.2650 from the British & Colonial factory, Contract A.S. 3117, equipped with the Falcon III engine. No further information on which unit got this S/N.

I think you'll need to go to the artist to find out from where he got his markings.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

von groove:
The red and white stripes continued on to the under surface of the upper wing. The fuselage was was painted red (including the nose.) The rear turtledeck was white with red edges along the turtle wrapping over the upper longerons. On the full size machines the red edges were 50 mm wide. There was a white chevon on the stabilizer. painted in white on the upper left elevator was Du doch and nicht!! on the right elevator. Wheel covers and all struts were red.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Thank you Patrick and Dan-San. I always thought that the F2b profile was dubious. I shall try and contact the artist via the publishers.

Thank you Dan-San for the information regarding the D.VII. I have seen some of your art work regarding this machine and have used it to assist in the restoration. The original person that built the model gave it a black nose and no white upper decking. Could you shed any light on the lozenge fabric for me please?

Many thanks for your help.

Von Groove

[Patrick]

Since Udet's machine was OAW-built, the rib tape was most likely light blue. The lozenge fabric is five color day pattern, dark -- look at posts 39 and 40 in the Camo and Markings/German Camouflage Colors thread for examples of the top and bottom colors. It was laid with the pattern running fore-to-aft across the chord of the wing so several pieces were stitched together at the selvage to cover the entire wing.

There's also an excellent article by Dave Roberts on this particular D.VII in the Windsock Data File Special Fokker D.VII, Anthology 2.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Patrick:
Ltn. Udet's Du doch nicht!! was a Fokker built D.VII from the first production order. It was NOT built by OAW. Dave Robert's is inaccurate. It is as I have described.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Patrick]

If from Fokker's first production order, does that make the wing fabric five color day dark with five color rib tapes?

[Southside Bucky]

Sheesh, here we go again!

V.G, the simple answer is, your guess is as good as anyone's.

There is only one photo of Udet's DVII, "Du Doch Nicht!!" and all you can see in it is the tailplane, part of the top wing, a small segment of the turtledeck, the cabane struts and the starboard interplane struts.

It also shows Udet's black and white flight leader streamers pinned to the tailplane.

No one can categorically state anything else about this plane unless they have unpublished photo's.

Jasta 4's DVII colours were black and white, therefore, some people say that Udet's "DDN!!" was painted likewise, ie, with a black nose. Not an unreasonable assumption, but who's to say?

Buy or borrow copies of Albatros productions "Fokker DVII Anthology" Vol 2,
Von Richthofens Flying Circus (Colours and Markings of Jagdesgeschwader Nr1) and Osprey's "Fokker DVII Aces" Part 1.

You need to see the evidence, then make up your own mind.

All the best.

Bucky.

[Patrick]

Anybody want to offer an opinion about the cowling color of Voss's Triplane?

[jtisch]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Anybody want to offer an opinion about the cowling color of Voss's Triplane?

I saw a book, circa 1960's, in my local used book shop that shows the Voss aircraft as overall silver/blue with a red cowl. Honestly, I just don't understand all this controversy!