MVR's Alb DII White nose ring, Black outlined?

Southside Bucky · 5 August 2005, 01:24 PM

Hi guy's.

I've just posted in another thread on this subject but thought I might get a better response with a purpose built new thread.

In trying to answer the question in that thread regarding the colours of MVR's Albatros DII 491/16, I looked again at the photo's of this machine in AE Ferko's Richthofen book (Albatros Productions).

It's well known that this machine had a white ring around it's nose (wether or not it's MVR's actual machine is another argument!).

I've studied these pictures quite often, but this time I noticed that the white ring seems to be outlined in black!

As stated in the other thread, DII fuselages could be finished in either light or dark wood. Those that were varnished "light" invariably seem to have either dark (black) individual markings, or white, outlined in black. The opposite seems to apply to dark coloured A/C.

So, is it my (aging) eyesight, or does that white ring really have a black outline?

All the best.

Bucky.

incidentally, I did a quick search to see if this has been discussed before and found nothing, but please forgive me if this is old news!

Here's the link to that other thread:
M von Richtofen's Albatros DII

Dan_San_Abbott · 5 August 2005, 04:31 PM

Southside Bucky:
It was just a simple white ring WITHOUT black edging.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

RAGIII · 5 August 2005, 10:52 PM

Bucky, I see what you are seeing. In this case however I think it may be an optical Illusion created by light meeting dark etc. One must understand that unless working with the original print things can and do look very different! I am more interested in finding out if MvR ever had his surname initials on the side of the DII as other Jasta 2 pilots had? Nowarra mentions this as well as some other authors. Anybody out there ever see any evidence ?
RAGIII

Southside Bucky · 6 August 2005, 06:16 AM

Hi RagIII.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble of looking at those photo's again.

I have to say though, I'm not sure about your reasoning. If you can see the outline, why say it's a light anomaly? I think that black outline would show on the original print even more than it does on the copy! As far as I'm concerned, if you can see it, it's there.

As I've said already, white does not contrast well against yellow (which is why I and most other people can't accept the Voss yellow cowling theory) and if you look at photo's, white markings on Albatros DII's were outlined in black to make them stand out better.

It was obviously deemed a neccesary thing to do at Jasta level.

If it's accepted (as Dan San would have it) that 491/16's fuselage was light coloured, then a black outline to the white ring would make perfect sense (to me anyway!).

As for the "Ri" on MVR's fuselage, we'll probably never know, but if it was there, it would have been painted white with a black outline...

Regards.

Bucky.

Dan_San_Abbott · 6 August 2005, 11:18 AM

Southside Bucky:
I will agree that the black out-line would look better and have contrast to the yellow fuselage, however, wishing won't make it so!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Southside Bucky · 6 August 2005, 12:25 PM

Who's wishing? Have you looked at the pictures again Dan?

Don't you see the outline?

Regards.

Bucky.

RAGIII · 6 August 2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southside Bucky

Hi RagIII.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble of looking at those photo's again.

I have to say though, I'm not sure about your reasoning. If you can see the outline, why say it's a light anomaly? I think that black outline would show on the original print even more than it does on the copy! As far as I'm concerned, if you can see it, it's there.
If it's accepted (as Dan San would have it) that 491/16's fuselage was light coloured, then a black outline to the white ring would make perfect sense (to me anyway!).

As for the "Ri" on MVR's fuselage, we'll probably never know, but if it was there, it would have been painted white with a black outline...

Regards.

Bucky.

Bucky,
As I stated I think the original photos may tell a different story. I do see the "possibility" of black outlines in the Ferko book pics.If this were the case with the originals then why would Mr. Ferko have accepted profiles showing no outline?DSA has disagreed with many of the Ferko findings (Interpretations) in the past, so I have to wonder if he is in agreement here is it not likely that it is as stated?
As for Dans suggestion that there were no Darker Stained fuselages I don't think I can agree! Lighting may account for some, but the evidence (to me) seems to indicate that there were darker DIIs.JMHO! I have seen this aircraft depicted with the Straw colored fuselage, and the darker stain. If the latter is true then no need for the Black Outlines.
If building a model for a contest using the Ferko pics from Richthofen, then you would have some justification for judges that there was a Black outline.
I still have some doubts as to its existence. Again just my very Humble Opinion!
RAGIII

Dan_San_Abbott · 7 August 2005, 03:43 PM

Southside Bucky:
I have looked at the picture of this machine. Right now I checked the photos in A.E.Ferko's "RICHTHOFEN". These two on page 13, you are right, they do look like the white band is bordered. I just checked the ALBATROS D.II Datafile 11, It does NOT show any borders. That is very interesting. Greg, please jump in and get your thoughts. These Ferko photos are sharper that what appears in the Albatros D.II Datafile. I think thse photo appeared in Cross & Cockade in one of the early volumes.
Bucky, I think you have something here. I did not look at "RICHTHOFEN". When it was mentioned I looked immediately. I would say about a 10mm black edging on both sides of the white band. I stand corrected!
Blue skies,
Dan-San
P.S. I am going to correct my drawing right now.

RAGIII · 8 August 2005, 12:47 AM

LOL, the one time I agree with DSA he says he is wrong!

Dan, My opinion of your Humility has just increased 100 fold! Bucky, just goes to show what I know of interpreting photos

RAGIII

shaneweier · 8 August 2005, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAGIII

LOL, the one time I agree with DSA he says he is wrong!

Dan, My opinion of your Humility has just increased 100 fold! Bucky, just goes to show what I know of interpreting photos

RAGIII

DSA may still be quite correct about the absence of the black edging.

Edge effect (also called adjacency effect) caused by inadequate agitation in the developer will cause a dark line along the edge of a white object even with modern films and developers. It's common enough in WW1 era plates for period photos to be used in university lectures on photography - which is where I learned about it 25 years ago.

It's yet another reason why two photos of the same subject can look different - which is half the fun in this area...

Shane