FOK. Dr.I 425/17

[JFM]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Dave Watts:
I could kiss you! The reason Fred could not find any red paint on the rudder, was because the rudder was never painted red on Fok.DR.I 425/17!
Ray Rimmell said the blemish in the fabric of the all red Fok.DR.I in front of the Bessoneau hangar at Lechelle Airfield and on other photos and concluded all these photographs were of Fok.Dr.I 425/17. The fact is the only machine that had the red rudder was Fok.DR.I 477/17! I have contented that all the photographs of the machine with the blemish on the side under the cockpit is Fok.DR.I 477/17! Further their is no record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 until 19 April 1918 and the only photographs are those taken at Bertangles Airfield after MvR was shot down!
Blue skies,
Dan

This is interesting stuff!

Dan-San, what of the descriptions MvR put in his combat reports?

"Fok Dr. I 477/17; red upper deck, red hood, red wheels & red tail"
"Fok Dr. I 425/17, red painting".

The above suggests 477/17 was not all red--i.e., listing only the specific areas that were red on 477/17. However, the term "hood" is odd--did he mean cowl? Reporting his 62nd victory he described 4693/17 as having a "hood"--"red hood, red tail"--but for his 63rd he described 4693/17 as "red body, red tail".

Mind you, I only have the translated combat reports; there are inconsistencies. His 73rd combat report describes 477/17 having a "red upper plane", not "red upper deck", and his 64th describes 152/17 as a "Fokker Biplane I".

As with everyone else, I wish I could get a peek at the originals...

[RAGIII]

Tim, I like the renedering very much! Color is great! As for crosses and their depiction I have the following comment/questions.
The pictures in A.E.Ferkos Richthofen tome of the remaining Cross fields taken from 425/17 in various museums show different stages of completion.The upper wing is as depicted, a late ( Last) marking change. The lower wings show an earlier version, not completed, still shows an angle to the inner black edge that is not completely overpainted.
My question, and only problem I have with DSAs' opinion that the V marked aircraft is 477/17 is as follows.
If 425/17 was not painted Red until April (19th,20th) then why do the Crosses show distinct reductions with Red, and White, and not OD, Red and White? If the Aircraft was not painted Red until the dates DSA accepts, why are three changes visible on the extant crosses, all reduced with Red!
The V marked Aircraft seems to be the only one that shows All stages of markings visible in Photos?

If 425/17 was not MvRs aircraft untill the 20th, It would seem that all crosses would have been reduced with Olive Brown Then overpainted with Red?

Although I know many disagree, Ferko states that his examinations showed NO Olive under the Red on extant fabric samples? I haven't examined any personally so I can't say one way or the other!

In the end it doesn't seem that the argument will be solved! I respect Dans opinion and redilly admit that he could be correct, but my questions still remain unanswered
RAGIII

PS: If this were a Virgin aircraft that had the original crosses before updating then all changed variants would appear the same right?

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Dan_San,
What do you make of ragIII remarks?It got me thinking did anyone else fly 425/17 before MVR or did Fokker have it painted red for MVR from the factory.Only reason i asked because some one ponited out there was no olive under it.So i figured maybe fokker painted it red for MVR from the factory.
I just love the answers you give to the people who are trying to learn this stuff right the first time.
LaterDays
JEP
RED BARON RETURNS

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Dan-San, I'll pass on the kiss for now, but we can toast each other at a future dinner.

There is still an easy answer as to how the late photo of "425" with the guards could have an old cross with a new type cross and not have the under coating of red outline field. That is if as I said the original outline field ruddrer got damaged and a mechanic took a salvaged rudder from another Dr.I that was still in all white with the old patte cross and updated it to a balkan straight cross and mounted it to "425".

To me the real answer is who or what "says" the Dr.I with the guards photo is of "425" and not "477"?

Best wishes,
Dave W.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RAGIII:
We don;t know when Fok.DR.I was painted red. What we know for a fact is There is no record of MvR flying the machine before 19 April 1918.In regard to the altered crosses, On 17 March 1918, Idflieg ordered the crosses to be changed from the Iron Cross to the balken (beam) cross was for all aircraft. The problem with Dr.I 425/17 there is no record when it was received at Jage Nr.1. If it was a machine held in reserve at at Armee Flugpark Nr.2 what ever modification came out, AFP 2 would have accomplished the changes as required. It may have been a reserve machine at one of the component Jasta within Jage Nr.1. This is suppostion. The facts we know are; MvR flew it on 19 April, 20 April and 21 April 1918. Where it was prior to those dates, there is no record.
Here is where the problem lies. There is a set of translated MvR combat reports. In them, the markings for Fok.DR.I 477/18 is "red upper deck, red hood, red wheels, red tail." If you accept these reports as bonified, then the all red Fokker Triplane in front of the Bessoneau Hangar cannot be Fok.Dr.I 477/17.
There are some major problems with these combat reports.
1. The translator does not follow the format of the German combat report.
2. The form of the date on the reports are American, not the German style, day month year
3. All the Fok.Dr.I machines commencing with Fok.DR.I 152/17 have the identical same finish. See above.
4. The markings for Alb.D.V 4693/17 are given as," Alb.D.V; red hood,red tail."
He did not mention the wings were painted red!
5. The markings for; "Alb.D.V 1177 red body." The entire machine was painted red including the crosses.
6. The translator used "squad" which is an infantry unit, A squad is defined as an element of a platoon, usually consisting of 12 men. Four squads make a platoon. It is not known whether the reference was to "an enemy Squadron" or to an, "enemy Flight". The number of aircraft were not given.
7. The format of the reports are wrong, I don't know why, unless he did not know the format of the German combat report. In any event, the translated reports do not conform to the format and style of the German Combat Report.
8. The date form is incorrect, the trannslator used, month,day,year. The european style is; day month and year.
9. The markings given do not conform to known markings for MvR's aircraft.
10. There is no record of who the translator was, or when and how these documents got into the Public Record Office.
Without going into a long commentary about these "Combat Reports" my conclusion is they are bogus. There are too many errors and inconsistancies in these documents to be valid translations.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Dave Watts:
I find your observation interesting about changing the rudder from some other plane would solve the question. The problem with your suppostion is, there is nothing to verify it was ever changed.
My stand is:
MvR starting flying Fok.DR.I 477/17 when they moved forward from Avenes-le-Sec to Awoingt on 20 March 1918. On the move from Awoingt, MvR flew Dr.I 477/17 to LeChelle Airfield on 26 March 1918. Fok.Dr.I 477/17 is pictured in front of the end Bessoneau Hangar. It was completely painted red with white bordered Iron Crosses.
My question for the doubters is, "If the Fok.DR.I in front of the end Bessoneau Hangar [I]is[I] Dr.I 425/17, then why did MvR not fly this machine before 19 April 1918, instead of Fok.DR.I 127/17 which seemed to be MvR's reserve machine?"
Dave I have yet to get a reply to that question!
With Fred Murrin's statement about the lack of red paint on the rudder fabric from DR.I 425/17, answers the question, the machine with the red rudder was Fok.Dr.I 477/17.
Blue skies,
Dan

[Tim West]

Heya,

Dan-San,

I understand your view but in the same light, there is no proof that MvR "did not" fly 425 prior to the 20th nor is there absolute proof that it did or did not have a red rudder. I doubt there would be a record of a simple rudder change so we will never know ......unless the photos are of 425.

It has been suggested to me that Ferko recalled seeing 425/17 on fuse while viewing negatives. I have no idea if this is true but if it is, then the photos with the v blemish are of 425 and not 477.

Really who knows.
I'am sticking with the above "field painted" profile

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by RED BARON RETURNS

Dan_San,
What do you make of ragIII remarks?It got me thinking did anyone else fly 425/17 before MVR or did Fokker have it painted red for MVR from the factory.Only reason i asked because some one ponited out there was no olive under it.So i figured maybe fokker painted it red for MVR from the factory.
I just love the answers you give to the people who are trying to learn this stuff right the first time.
LaterDays
JEP
RED BARON RETURNS

I think the plane was painted in the field. There is olive staining on the backside of one of cross samples and you can see light blue under the red on the port side cross sample. But in either case, there not a clear answer, just opinion.

Here is my version of the port side crossfield mentioned...

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Tim West

Heya,

Dan-San,

I understand your view but in the same light, there is no proof that MvR "did not" fly 425 prior to the 20th nor is there absolute proof that it did or did not have a red rudder. I doubt there would be a record of a simple rudder change so we will never know ......unless the photos are of 425.

It has been suggested to me that Ferko recalled seeing 425/17 on fuse while viewing negatives. I have no idea if this is true but if it is, then the photos with the v blemish are of 425 and not 477.

Really who knows.
I'am sticking with the above "field painted" profile

Tim, Not only do I agree, but in the end it makes Little difference. The Machine was flown by MvR in an ALL Red scheme. I am looking forward to your complete picture
RAGIII

[Drdad]

I agree. Because there is no record of MvR having flown 425 does not meant he did not. Dan-San asks why then did he Not fly it if it was " his airplane"?
Perhaps it was undergoing repair and the " customization " that made 425 unique.
Fact: The guns have widely different numbers. Usually the guns on a single ship had paired numbers or at least closely different. The numbers on 425 were in the 600's and the other 1700's. This suggests one was a replacement gun.
Fact: The control column on 425 was customized to Mvr Specs. The mag. kill button was moved to the upper right position and welded there. To accomodate this, the right limb of the handle was cut, extended with a short sleeve and re welded.You can not safly flame weld in the cockpit, so the entire control column had to be removed and re rigged to effect this change.
Fact: We know the machine under went at least three paint and insignia changes in three months as well as perhaps a complete rudder change. ( It may mean the rudder was simply recovered).
In any case, all these alterations take alot of time , particularly if done in the field and under war time conditions. Perhaps he didn't fly 425 simply because
it was " in the shop".