Gerrard/paint chips

LedZepplane · 9 January 2006, 01:05 AM

Howdy, Folks:
It took me a while to dig this out, but this old issue of WINDSOCK has an interesting article concerning Colors and Markings of Pfalz D.III, 1370/17. The pilot was Vizefeldwebel Hecht of Jasta 10 and was captured after he was forced to land after an engagement with No. 35 Squadron RFC, late in December. In this Issue (of which I just have a few pages that I manage to save) included paint chips. The Methuen match for the green is “27E8” and “4B8” for yellow

Acknowledgements in this article read:
“…Also much thanks to Mr. Rodeny G Gerrard of Hull for original research and Information…” page, 14. So, approach with caution!

In “von Richthofen’s Flying Circus: Colours and markings of Jagdgeschwader Nr.1” the back cover includes a color profile of 1370/17, with Methuen 26F7/F8 for green. This new match was based on the original green paint from 1370/17. As for the yellow, your guess is as good as mine.

I hope the forum found this little tad of information useful?

Sincerely: Danny

Laserlloyd · 9 January 2006, 05:53 AM

Ouch!!!!! Here we go again.....

Dan_San_Abbott · 9 January 2006, 03:30 PM

LedZepplane:
Rodney Gerrard took in lot of people with his very large collection of FAKE intell reports. Unfortunately one of them was Ray Rimell. Another was a good friend, Dr.Martin O'Connor. Marty had based his coloration of Austrian aircraft, in his book, "Air Aces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire 1914-1918."
I had expressed some doubts about Gerrard, which infuriated Marty! As a result, I lost his friendship. It's still happening.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

LedZepplane · 9 January 2006, 04:46 PM

Mr. Abbott:
First, it was not my intention to offend anyone in the forum, and surely not Mr. Rimell. Actually, my posting, if anything, was to demonstrate that Mr. Rimell, is hard at work to correct what Mr. Gerrard had perpetuated in the past. That’s why I laid down the two bits of information out side by side. It’s because of dishonest people like Mr. Gerrard who compel people years later to pick up a pen and start scribbling annotations in their books; to strike out the old misinformation and jot down the new. And I have quite a few books full of annotations. Well, time to move on to other and more interesting subjects.

All the best
Sincerely: Danny

Gregvan · 9 January 2006, 06:08 PM

Hi LedZepplane,

Yup, when Ray and I did the Flying Circus book, Ray studied the actual rudder from this machine which is held by the RAF Museum. The original green paint applied for Hecht has been overpainted somewhat but Ray could stil make out some pieces of the original green paint, which is where he got the specs. Rodney Gerrard had faked his own 'samples' of this aircraft, which Dan-San and I have seen. I always try to correct old misconceptions, and occasionally wind up trying to correct some of my own errors in print in later books - which gets some people very frustrated! Nonetheless, it's my responsibility to do so. That's why Ray & I published the new refs in the book.

One reason Ray and I have published the correct info on this particular Pfalz D III 1370/17 so often is that the old Kenneth Munson book "Fighters - Attack and Training Aircraft 1914-1919, published by Macmillan/Blandford Press in 1968, had depicted a color view of this a/c with an incorrect yellow tail, and yellow stripes on the fuselage and top wing, based on interpretation of the photos with no other info to go on. This color scheme had first been depicted this way in the Profile Publication #43 on the Pfalz D III (1965), and since that time has been widely copied in models, declas, artwork, etc etc. The reports on this aircraft after its capture make it crystal clear that the tail was green (pilot's personal marking) and the stripes were black (ditto). The nose, struts and wheel covers were yellow (Jasta 10 marking).But old myths die hard, and you'll still see the 'all-yellow' scheme turn up.

Thanks for posting this, Led (or do I call you Zepplane?).

Greg VanWyngarden

LedZepplane · 9 January 2006, 07:27 PM

Mr. VanWyngarden:
Thank you for your reply. I wasn’t trying to make a formal statement to set errors strait, as much as I was just trying to get an interesting thread started on a subject that I enjoy: World War One Aviation! I was speaking for myself, what I think, and what I think really isn’t all that important to me as much as the replies to a question I receive from good folks like yourself and Mr. Abbott. To converse on a subject is to gain knowledge (that almost sounded like a proverb) in short; I was just trying to make conversation.
Next time I’ll be more careful with the subject matter. Thanks again Mr. VanWyngarden, and I wish you all the best- you can call me Led!

Most Sincerely: Danny

Laserlloyd · 9 January 2006, 07:48 PM

Greg,

Would you say the Paul L. has a majority of Rodeny Gerrard collection? I know that this is a touchy subject for some of you but I hope that we all can learn from this. I have the article that Paul did in OTF and was wondering if a more thrall publication on how each piece has impacted history and what we now know of them would be a possibility.

Lloyd…

Colin A Owers · 9 January 2006, 09:58 PM

Dan

I always thought that the Gerrard A-H fakes were based on Marty's research, which is probably why Marty was so loath to accept Gerrard's samples as fakes, since they seemed to confirm his preconceived opinions.

We can never know now how much stock Marty put in Gerrard's fakes, but this should not belittle the work he did. Marty's work is the rock which we build from.

Glad to say I managed to stay friends with Marty until his too early death.

Colin A Owers

Dan_San_Abbott · 10 January 2006, 02:44 PM

Colin:
when I raised my doubts in the telephone conversation I had with Marty regarding Rodney fabric samples and intelligence reports, Marty defended him and told me I was full of sh-- and I did not know what I was talking about. Marty had complete confidence in Rodney's junk. My biggest concerns when I became suspicious of Rodney's junk, was Marty O'Connor and his book. I had discussed this with Greg, wondering how best to resolve this problem. As I result of raising my suspicions, I lost a real good friend. Marty did not ever see the end result, he had expired from cancer before it was made public.
Marty never forgave me.
A very sad day,
Dan-San

Taz · 10 January 2006, 06:56 PM

Danny, Lloyd, Greg, Colin, Dan-San- I think this is an excellent example why all of us who love WW-I aviation history must make sure an honest difference of opinion must not never be taken as a personal attack. Dan and I love sparring over Triplanes and D.VIIs, but it never means I do not respect and revere his knowledge of WW-I and would never let it affect our friendship. Too much ego and such irreplaceable friendship is too easily lost. Hopefully we can all maintain a balance between being sticklers on history and believing the person whose opinion is different from ours makes him no longer worthy of friendship and respect. It is a delicate balance we must maintain as we slide down the razor blade of life. Thanks to all of you experts for helping us amateurs learn a little more about a subject we love without making any more fun of us than we deserve.

Taz
Terry Phillips
Owner of at least two pieces of Rodney Gerrard art.