425/17

[Taz]

I thought Ed Ferko told Alex Imrie he could see 425/17 through the overpaint on the original photos of the Dr.I at LeChelle (sp?)? I know I read Alex saying that somewhere.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Langdon:
I am not being a smart ass when I ask you this question, first I don't want an opinion, I want straight skinny, What color were the cross fields painted on Fok.DR.I 425/17 that are held in the Australia War Museum?
This I am most curious about. What I understand you to say is, "The first modfication to the crossfields to comply with the Idflieg order to paint out the crossfields leaving only a 5cm white border surrounding the Iron Cross. (Before the 17 March 1918 order to change the cross form to the Balken cross.)" Can you substantiate your answer?
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

I'm glad you are asking this question as I believe the existing fabric displays absolute proof that the aircraft was painted all red with the narrow cross borders prior to the 17th of March. The photo below was taken by Hugh Robinson (presently finishing a very nice replica of this aircraft in Florida) when the two of us visited the Australian War Memorial a couple of years ago. Unfortunately I still do not have access to most of my files so I cannot quote the gentlemans name who collected the souvenir but I remember that he was one of the first to the crash site and shortly after he was wounded in action, whilst he was recovering in hospital he was visited by a superior who demanded the fabric so that it could be placed in the yet to be built War Memorial, this piece has been in the collection since the last days of the war.

Note how the Cross has yet to be completed into its final form, you can see that the Iron Cross was painted in gloss black paint but this has been over painted with matt black, the new Cross is not as wide as the Iron Cross so the old one protrudes at the tips of its legs. In this photo you can clearly see the 5cm white band that parallels the early Cross but part of it has been over painted to conform with the new Cross. Only the white paint needs to be applied to finish this lower wing Cross.

Langdon

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Taz

I thought Ed Ferko told Alex Imrie he could see 425/17 through the overpaint on the original photos of the Dr.I at LeChelle (sp?)? I know I read Alex saying that somewhere.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Taz,

When I visited the Ferco Collection UDT I read a letter in the collection which was a copy of one sent by Ed Ferco (I'm not sure who it was addressed to) an in it he mentioned that he could clearly read 425/17 in the negative of his print, it was from this that he identified the aircraft.

Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
Is this a lower wing cross? Did you see any other color on th cross field?
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

Yes, as I mentioned above it is a lower wing Cross.

The linen on this aircraft is very white, my recollection is that the original large cross field was unpainted but I'm not certain of this, it is possible it was painted white. Certainly the cross fields on the fuselage were originally painted white and they bear the same evidence of the narrow border around the Iron Cross. This aircraft must have been painted in that scheme prior to March the 17th 1918.

I found a copy of the AWM documentation on the fabric above.

Description of RELAWM07570:

A rough square of aircraft fabric featuring a black German Balkenkreuz bordered by white, all on a red painted background. The black cross and its white border are unevenly painted and do not match each other. There is evidence of multiple white and black paint coats, as there is with the red paint. The reverse of the fabric is very messy, with evidence of black, red and green paint and possibly dope. The fabric has been removed from the aircraft in a rough square shape approximating the Balkenkreuz, but has cut though the lower end of one of the crosses. The approximate centreline of the Balkenkreuz coincides with a double folded sewn seam. This appears to be where the square of fabric has been repeatedly folded and is thus fragile at this point. Most of the paint is crazed or cracked.

Context:

This square of fabric was recovered from von Richthofen's crashed triplane a few minutes after the crash by Lieutenant George M Travers, MC, 49 Battalion. He related his account of events for Smith's Weekly on August 25 1934 and the narrative commences from the point where he was lying on Corbie Hill with a pair of binoculars, watching two planes approach from 2-3 miles (about 5 kilometres) away. One was Lt Wilfred May's Sopwith Camel - the other Richthofen's Fokker Triplane.

"My runner, Private Webber, was with me and I had the two planes in view, coming straight towards us, for 2 or 3 miles. They came straight along the line of the Somme to Corbie Hill. Richthofen was very close to the tail of the other plane and firing at it when he was within a few hundred yards of us.

"Just then a machine gun down below us fired three of four bursts and Richthofen's plane seemed to turn on its side, right itself again, then swerve sharply to the right and swoop gradually to the ground, landing about half a mile away.

"The first three to reach the plane were Captain Cruickshank, Staff Captain of the 11th Brigade, my runner and myself. Cruickshank took charge of things and carried a few papers and a gold watch back to Brigade headquarters. Richthofen was identified by an inscription on the watch.

"I don't suppose anyone can be 'shot at dawn' after fifteen years or more for admitting to going souvenir-hunting. I got one of the big black crosses, about 4 ft by 4 ft, painted on the red paint which was over the fabric of his plane. This cross I wrapped up and put in my valise.

"A few days after, at Villers-Bretonneux, I was severely wounded and eventually arrived at Wandsworth Hospital, England. A Sergeant from the Records Section in London came down to see me and said he had been sent by Major Treloar, OC Records. He said they had heard that I had Richthofen's cross and asked if I would let them have it for the Australian War Museum. Eventually I gave into them."

Smith's Weekly also tracked down and interviewed Edward Burrow, a fellow member of Travers' company, who corroborated Travers' account:

"I was also a witness of the affair and went over to the place where the plane was lying immediately after it had struck the ground. Richthofen was then dead.

"There was such a scramble for souvenirs that, although only minutes had elapsed from the time he struck the ground till I got there, someone had relieved him of his boots."

Attempts by Australian War Memorial staff to contact Travers in October 1934 to ascertain which wing he had cut the cross from were unsuccessful - a Memorial clerk noting "apparently useless to hope for a reply".

Quoted in AWM93 - 12/11/5350 "G.M. Travers Esq, MC, Balranald, NSW."

Who'd a thunk as much information on MvR's airplanes exists, as does. Thank you to the experts contributing. It appears although there are differences of opinion, you guys are gentlemen about it.

Looking at the cross from MvR's airplane in the Australian Museum, it appears Revell's newest 1/28th version of Dr1 425/17 has these details close to right!

I have a hunch keeping track of these types of details back in this time period were less important to people and we really should be thankful we have the information we have! You guys whom spend your free time attempting to sort this stuff out, I want to thank!

Mark DeSchane, Mode One

[Troy Raines]

Originally Posted by Langdon

Taz,

When I visited the Ferco Collection UDT I read a letter in the collection which was a copy of one sent by Ed Ferco (I'm not sure who it was addressed to) an in it he mentioned that he could clearly read 425/17 in the negative of his print, it was from this that he identified the aircraft.

Langdon

Taz/Langdon,
If memory serves Ferko did say he could read the S/N of 425/17. It was the photo with the armed guards and NCO standing watch. I believe this started when Albatros issued their datafile special on the Dr.I and continued when Alex published his book on the Triplane. I think it came back up when Paul Leaman's book came out too. But anyway all this happened in the early 1990's with the Albatros and Imrie stuff. There was a lot of letter writing back and forth in Windsock and Cross and Cockade, etc. Again, all the above is subject to my memory. I'll try to look it up when I get a chance.
Troy

[Langdon]

Troy,

I believe you are correct.

I attach the following photo showing the reverse side of the fabric above. I believe it displays some evidence that the aircraft was originally painted in normal camouflage prior to being painted red. The other possibly is that the green colour is contamination.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I recently read that when the painters in Jasta 11 changed the crossfields they were painted red, not olive-brown. Thank for adding the report by Lt. Travers. That is fantastic. The piece I had, Paul Winslow, included its history, I passed provenence from Paul so he has a complete history from the day it was cut up from a lareger piece.
Thank you ,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I am glad to share the document as I belive it has not been widely read. It doesn't leave much doubt as to how MvR met his downfall, no other Camel for at least 2 to 3 miles!

What is your take on the green staining to the piece above?

Langdon