425/17

14 January 2006, 05:09 PM

When did the 425/17 first see action?Was this plane flown by anyone else before MVR.
Also guys i'm new here to the aerodrome so i have a lot to learn about you experts on WWI aviation.
Baron

RAGIII · 14 January 2006, 10:19 PM

AFAIK, 425/17 was flown by MvR and not others. Correct me if I am wrong, but Dan San Abbott says there is No Record of this aircraft until April 20th 1918?, when MvR shot down 2 Camels. Others vary in opinion and believe this aircraft was flown (or Assigned to MvR) much earlier, perhaps as a backup. This like any mention of markings etc. of 425/17, 477/17 etc. will stir up controversy

I suggest you do a "Search" of the Forum for more info.
RAGIII

Dan_San_Abbott · 15 January 2006, 01:19 PM

RAGIII:
From my research, there is no record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918. 1. We don't know when it was received in Jage Nr.1.
2. We don't know when it was painted.
3. We don't know if it was flown by anyone else before MvR flew Fok.DR.I 425/17 on 20 April 1918 when he scored 79 th and 80th victories.
4. If what is claimed by some that DR.I 425/17 was photographed from 26 March 1918 until it was destroyed on 21 April 1917. If that is so, then, THERE ARE NO PHOTOS OF FOK.DR.I 477/17 which MVR Flew from 24 March to 11 April 1918. OR , ALL THE PHOTOS ARE OF 477/17 and none of 425/17!!
Just something to mull over with a cup of coffee.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Laserlloyd · 15 January 2006, 07:07 PM

I do show that 425/17 test flown on January 8, 1918. Now what I don't know if this date is the acceptance date. Usually it took about 30 days once a plane was accepted to it was delivered. This will place the delivery date some were around February, 8 1918. If in fact this is true then it would have been flown several times and have plenty of time to have been repainted.

Lloyd...

RAGIII · 15 January 2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

RAGIII:
From my research, there is no record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918. 1. We don't know when it was received in Jage Nr.1.
2. We don't know when it was painted.
3. We don't know if it was flown by anyone else before MvR flew Fok.DR.I 425/17 on 20 April 1918 when he scored 79 th and 80th victories.
4. If what is claimed by some that DR.I 425/17 was photographed from 26 March 1918 until it was destroyed on 21 April 1917. If that is so, then, THERE ARE NO PHOTOS OF FOK.DR.I 477/17 which MVR Flew from 24 March to 11 April 1918. OR , ALL THE PHOTOS ARE OF 477/17 and none of 425/17!!
Just something to mull over with a cup of coffee.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Thanks Dan, I am glad that I did not mis-qoute the info you have researched. I was fairly certain that the April 20th date was correct.As I stated this discussion has been done, re-done, and re-re-done on this forum. A search would save a lot of anguish

RAGIII

Langdon · 16 January 2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

RAGIII:
From my research, there is no record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918. 1. We don't know when it was received in Jage Nr.1.
2. We don't know when it was painted.
3. We don't know if it was flown by anyone else before MvR flew Fok.DR.I 425/17 on 20 April 1918 when he scored 79 th and 80th victories.
4. If what is claimed by some that DR.I 425/17 was photographed from 26 March 1918 until it was destroyed on 21 April 1917. If that is so, then, THERE ARE NO PHOTOS OF FOK.DR.I 477/17 which MVR Flew from 24 March to 11 April 1918. OR , ALL THE PHOTOS ARE OF 477/17 and none of 425/17!!
Just something to mull over with a cup of coffee.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

The photos that you believe show 477/17 in the old style cross with narrow borders, roughly what date do you believe they were taken based on their National markings scheme?

What date was 477/17 first painted for MvR?

Langdon

Laserlloyd · 16 January 2006, 06:52 PM

Both Alex Imerie in "The Fokker Triplane" pg. 65 and Norman Franks/Greg Vanwyngarden in "Fokker Dr.I Aces of World War 1" pg.28 have placed 477/17 because of the mixed national marking in late March. I do agree with this, do to the markings of the other planes in the background. I would also possibly move the date forward to late April. The Eisernes Kreuz is to be replaced by the Balkenkreuz by 17 March 1918. We have seen photos in April still showing both. The next change to the Balkenkreuz acured on 10 Apr 1918.

Here is an interesting one; in Paul Leaman's "Fokker Dr.I Triplane" pg.155 has the same photo. Paul lists this as 486/77 and no 477/17. He doesn't give a time but mentions March 17 as the conform date.

I like the matching photo of the flight line on the same date showing the Dr.I with the swastika.

Lloyd...

16 January 2006, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED BARON

Also guys i'm new here to the aerodrome so i have a lot to learn about you experts on WWI aviation.

We're all learnin' here everyday.....that's part of the charm of this place!

BTW, welcome aboard. If you like talking about important stuff like the color of a certain pilot's engine cowling, then you came to the right place

regards,

Darren

Langdon · 16 January 2006, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Both Alex Imerie in "The Fokker Triplane" pg. 65 and Norman Franks/Greg Vanwyngarden in "Fokker Dr.I Aces of World War 1" pg.28 have placed 477/17 because of the mixed national marking in late March. I do agree with this, do to the markings of the other planes in the background. I would also possibly move the date forward to late April. The Eisernes Kreuz is to be replaced by the Balkenkreuz by 17 March 1918. We have seen photos in April still showing both. The next change to the Balkenkreuz acured on 10 Apr 1918.

Here is an interesting one; in Paul Leaman's "Fokker Dr.I Triplane" pg.155 has the same photo. Paul lists this as 486/77 and no 477/17. He doesn't give a time but mentions March 17 as the conform date.

I like the matching photo of the flight line on the same date showing the Dr.I with the swastika.

Lloyd...

Thanks Lloyd,

I really want to hear from Dan-San on this one.

My guess is mid March or earlier, I don't believe it would be late April as MvR was shot down by then.
Langdon

Dan_San_Abbott · 17 January 2006, 12:21 PM

Langdon:
On 12 March 1918, MvR shot down his 64, 65 and 66 victories flying Fok.DR.I 152/17. From 13 March to 19 March 1918, it appears that MvR stood down. During this period, Fok.DR.I 477/17 was painted all red with white bordered crosses. Also during this period he used Fok.DR.I 161/17 and Dr.I 525/17 for flights to Jasta 5 at Boistrancourt Airfield to discuss the forth coming "Operation Michael" with Oblt . Flashar, Gruja 2.
My first record of Fok.DR.I 477/17 is when Jage.Nr.1 was at Awoingt Airfield on 20 March 1918. Awoingt Airfield was the Forward Airfield for Jage.Nr.1 for the "Battle of France" on 21 March 1918. Jage.Nr.1 was there until the move to Le Chelle Airfield on 26 March 1918. MvR scored his 67th victory on 20 March 1918 while base at Awoingt Airfield. MvR in his Combat Report identifies his machine as Fok.DR.I 477/17.
The photographs taken at LeChelle on 26 March 1918, (Alex Imries Data, See GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS, JUNE 1917-1918, OSPREY/AIRWAR 17, pages 12-13. and back outside cover of C&C Great Britain, Vol.7,No2 1976.) show a fully overpainted Fok.DR.I with white bordered Iron Crosses in front of the end Bessoneau Hangar.
It is my contention that the over painted Fok.DR.I is Fok.DR.I 477/17. And all the photos of the overpainted DR.I taken at LeChelle Airfield were of Dr.I 477/17.
The last record we have of Dr.I 477/17 is 11 April 1918, MvR's 77th and 78th victories. All during this period there is no record of Dr.I 425/17.
The first record of DR.425/17 is 20 April 1918. On 11 April 1918, Jage.Nr.1 moved to Cappy Airfield and were settled in on 12 April 1918. I believe that during the period of 12 to 19 April 1918, Fok.DR.425/18 was acquired and was painted for MVR. MvR was apparently inactive during this
period.
On 20 April 1918 MvR used Fok.DR.I 425/17 for the first time on record and shot down his 79th and 80th victories. On 21 April 1918 was shot down flying Fok.DR.I 425/17.
Langdon there is my take on what MvR flew from 20 March to 21 April 1918 and how they were painted.
My question is if it was DR.I 425/17 photographed at LeChelle on 26 March, why did he use Fok.DR.I 127/17 on 27 March and 6 April 1918 and not DR.I 425/17?
Blue skies,
Dan-San