Richthofen's Halberstadt D-11 markings

CWatson · 26 February 2006, 12:17 PM

The Halberstadt in the picture above is camouflaged but has a solid color on the turtle back, red ,green, or brown?

CWatson

Dan_San_Abbott · 26 February 2006, 02:04 PM

CWatson:
If you blow up the photo and look carefully you will see the lighter diagonal band wraps around the fuselage. The side and turtle-deck of the fuselage is camouflaged in dark olive green and rust brown.
blue skies,
Dan-San

Brad · 26 February 2006, 02:14 PM

I was pretty sure he had a "kill" on Feb 1 in the Halberstadt. I've seen documentation on the web to that effect, but I don't know where it is now.

Brad

StephenLawson · 26 February 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Kepple

Steven...Dan San, This information is great. But now it raises another question. Am I to assume M.v.R. flew an "uncamouflaged" Halberstadt D.II, on March 17th, 1917 in his victory over a F.E.2b.? Would like to get this one right, or as close to right as possible, for an upcoming painting. Much thanks, TeeKay.

We have to assume a great deal on the uncamouflaged Halb. D.II. One of the Alb. D.III types that MvR turned over to Lothar when he arrived at Jasta 11 was simply marked with a red band around the fuselage. There are no photos in the public domain of the Halb. D. II in CDL assigned to MvR. It was the specific combat log of Feb. 1, 1917 as researched by Paul S. Leaman that tells us it was used for this victory. He "may" have had this Halb. D.II painted in some way but we just don't know. Though one of the "Silent Old Birds" might. We know from several early accounts aircraft were overpainted to take away the "shine." Ltn. Jacobs himself mentions this done on his Fokker D.II. MvR was also known to fly machines of the unit assigned to other pilots. He flew Ltn. Lüpperts yellow and blue quartered Albatros D.III for a victory. As commander he could fly any aircraft he wanted.

Another interesting side light was mentioned by Southside Bucky. Just because we see MvR standing by the camouflaged Halberstadt D.II doesn't mean it was "his." But there was one evidently assigned to him at one point during his leave in May 1917. Even if it was for just short hops it would certainly cut down on travel time and he could avoid delays by ground.

In one specific story on MvR I believe it was Susan Hayes-Fischer that told the tale that in May 1917 MvR had landed his aircraft in a local park in Breslau that was down the street from his family home. After the war in this same park a bronze plaque was mounted in a stone monument with ther relief depicting the famous image of MvR in the Alb. D.V cockpit sans goggles. (See the image below of the bedroom memorial his mother created) There is a high probability that it was this camouflaged Halberstadt D.II (or another loaner) that was the machine he used in this flight. The local home defense unit would have detailed a guard to stand watch in most cases.

Thomas Kepple · 27 February 2006, 09:27 AM

Thanks Steven, I guess this is where "artistic license" comes in to play.

The red band around the fuselage might be a possible...and/or maybe red wheel covers.

...TeeKay.

Dan_San_Abbott · 28 February 2006, 02:43 PM

TeeKay:
I don't think so, a good of the fuselage is visible in the two photos and I don't see any banding or colors.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

StephenLawson · 28 February 2006, 04:56 PM

Hey Dan;

I think he was talking about doing a CDL Halb. D.II with a red band. Then the diorama idea was to copy the Halb. D.II camouflaged version as MvR may have used it to land in his home town as Susan Hayes Fischer's research related.

Thomas Kepple · 2 March 2006, 12:12 PM

Hi, Dan San. As you mentioned on page two of this thread, The Halberstadt D. IIs ordered from March to May 1917, were delivered clear doped and varnished. That's what I was looking for. However...That raises the question...Was M.v.R flying a "non-camouflaged" Halb. DII for his 17th victory over the F.E.b.2 ? And, if these previous to March-May aircraft were delivered clear doped and varnished, were they then "finished" in the cammo scheme after arrival at the assigned Jasta? If orders for the camouflaged aircraft were made in March-May, would that mean the aircraft (Halb. DIIs) already there wouldn't have been camouflaged? Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for your info,

TeeKay.

Southside Bucky · 2 March 2006, 03:07 PM

Hi guys.

According to Peter M Grosz in 'Halberstadt Fighters' (Windsock publications Classics Of WW1 Aviation), the Halberstadt in the MvR / Gerstenberg photo is actually a D.III (three) serial No. 129/16.

The caption to the photo (on page 22) reads:

"Against the backdrop of Halberstadt D.III 129/16, Rittmeister

Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen and Leutnant von Gerstenberg take time to exchange views on the Berlin demi-monde at Aldlershof probably in May 1917. While flying to his home in Schweidnitz and rubbernecking with his hands off the controls, von Richthofen's Halberstadt suddenly turned turtle. He was saved by the seat belt".

How Mr Grosz (one of, if not the most knowledgeable authority on German WW1 aviation) knows the serial Number of this plane I don't know, there certainly isn't any number visible in the photo, but then, I wouldn't argue against him either!

To confuse matters further, a colour side profile included in the book, depicts Halberstadt D.III 129/16 in an overall 'Feldgrau' scheme with black and white stripes, and the serial number painted on the rear fuselage, which bears no relation to the standard camouflaged plane in the MvR photo...Maybe the plane designation and serial number in the MvR photo caption is a misprint?

Regards.

Bucky.

StephenLawson · 2 March 2006, 05:08 PM

Peter is very thorough with his research. If he says it is serial #129/16 then its documented. Even on the reverse sides of his photos There is a section box that is ink stamped. Its sections note the aircraft type and serial number. When he's back up and around we could even ask his provenance of the image.