Richthofen's Halberstadt D-11 markings

Southside Bucky · 1 June 2006, 03:20 PM

Hi guys.

This one went unsolved a few months back...Thought I'd try to bring it back into discussion because it's still kinda bugging me!

I refer you to post No.29, in which I pointed out a possible anomaly in Peter M. Grosz' book for Windsock publications; "Halberstadt Fighters". Page 22.

Just to summarize:

Mr Grosz states that the serial No. of the Halberstadt (a D.III, apparently) that Richthofen is standing next to is 129/16, even though the plane in the photo, which is camouflaged, (green/brown) has no serial number visible at all.

Yet the book contains a colour profile of 129/16 depicted in an overall Feldgrau scheme, with B/W stripes and the serial number painted on the fuselage.

Part of the reason I brought this back up is because I noted from another recent thread that Stephen Lawson has had recent contact with Mr Grosz, and I wonder if we might be able to resolve this little puzzle once and for all?

Here's hoping...

All the best.

Bucky.

Dan_San_Abbott · 4 June 2006, 06:05 PM

Southside Bucky:
Peter Grosz has a mountainof data on German aircraft and pilots. I don't know how he tied that Halb.D. in the photo to MvR and Halb.D.III 129/16.
It could be MvR's Halberstadt. But then again.....
One of the problems that trouble us, is the identification of pilot's machines. As far as I know, there is no photographs of the Halb.D II, D.III or D.V machines of Jasta 11. There is no data about markings, Jasta or personal.
What is known he painted his Alb.D.III "glaring red" while everyone else flew Hab.D.types. We don't know for certain, that he got "le petit rouge" back after he cracked the wing. I would think so, but..
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Gregvan · 4 June 2006, 08:06 PM

Hi,

Personally, I wouldn't get too excited about Peter's caption which says this Halberstadt was D.III 129/16. If you'll check page 20 of the same book, photos 42 and 43, there are two halftone photos of a D.III with 129/16 painted visibly (for some unknown reason) on the fuselage. These appear to have been lifted from some old book. It is THESE photos that formed the basis for Ray Rimell's somewhat speculative color profile on page 49. It's obvious comparing those two photos with the Halberstadt in the MvR and Gerstenberg photo, that they are NOT the same aircraft (IMHO). I don't know how Pete got the mention of 129/16 into the MvR photo, but I would GUESS that it was a simple slip-up of the kind that can happen when you're writing dozens of captions and trying to keep things straight. That's not a criticism of Pete - it's happened to me lots of times! When Ed Ferko used this same photo in his book on Richthofen, he didn't mention the serial number - and he would have if it could be read from the photo in any way possible.

Nor do I think this is probably the Halberstadt that MvR flew in combat. Ferko says only, "In the background is seen a Halberstadt which may have been flown by Richthofen in the homeland." Ferko suggests the photo may have been taken at Breslau, Grosz says Adlershof possibly in May 1917. We know that Richthofen did fly a Halberstadt in the homeland. According to Lothar, when MvR was making a flight to FEA 11 in Breslau in mid-May 1917, MvR's Halberstadt D type suddenly flipped on its back - he was saved by his seatbelt. The sturdy hangars in the background of the photo suggest a well-established airfield somewhere in Germany, not at the front. There is another photo of the same scene, showing MvR, Gerstenberg, and an Albatros D.III. Should we immediately leap to the conclusion that MvR flew the Albatros D.III as well? Or that Gerstenberg flew the Halberstadt, since he appears in both photos? In the back of Ferko's "Richthofen" book, there is a listing of Halberstadts assigned to Jasta 11 up to 30 October 1916 (five D.Vs and one D.II) and another list of a/c supplied up to December 31, 1916 (1 D.II, four Hannover-built D.IIs, one D.III, 12 D.Vs) and eighteen different Halberstadts used up to February 28, 1917. I presume these serials came from AFP 6 records, since Ed was a very careful historian. D.III 129/16 is not listed among them anywhere.

As much as we might wish for a nice photograph of the Halberstadt that MvR flew in combat, I doubt that one exists. But, stranger things have happened.

Greg

Gregvan · 4 June 2006, 08:10 PM

Hi,

Here is a VERY poor print of the other photo showing this mysterious Halberstadt in the background. Ferko says that Hptmn Carganico is also behind Richthofen, and Gerstenberg is at right.

Greg

Gregvan · 4 June 2006, 08:14 PM

Hi,

Here is the only 'other' photo I know of which MAY show a Jasta 11 Halberstadt (I repeat MAY). It shows

Kurt Wolff with what appears to be a Halberstadt D-Type.

Have fun,

Greg

Cigogne · 4 June 2006, 09:32 PM

There is another Halberstadt D-type behind in the Wolff photo. Also, it might be interesting to try and date the photo based on Wolff's decorations.

Dan_San_Abbott · 5 June 2006, 04:25 PM

Gentlemen:
The Halberstadt in photo in the #33 posting is either a Halb.D.II or D.III. It has the extended trailing edge on the aileron.
Photo #35 of

Kurt Wolff is standing in front of a Halb.D.V. The upper nose cowl is the identifing clue. The extended chord aileron on the Halberstadt in the background is either a D.II or a D.III. Too bad there is not a flight line photo.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Cigogne · 5 June 2006, 04:34 PM

Dan-San,

I agree, a flight line photo would be fun to see. I really like the Halberstadt D-types.

Southside Bucky · 7 June 2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Southside Bucky:
As far as I know, there is no photographs of the Halb.D II, D.III or D.V machines of Jasta 11. There is no data about markings, Jasta or personal.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

Hi Dan,

I Hope all's well with you and yours.

I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but thanks for confirming what I said way back in post No.3.

Thanks to you too Greg, for confirming what I thought regarding Peter Grosz' caption to the MVR/Halberstadt photo.

All the best.

Bucky.

StephenLawson · 7 June 2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southside Bucky

Hi TeeKay. MvR's Halberstadt(s) are undocumented and no photo's exist, so no one is gonna be able to help you there I'm afraid.
BTW, I know you meant two, and not eleven!... Some people eh?

Regards.
Bucky.

Yet we do have an image of MvR by a Halberstadt and no one can say without any reservations that it is not the one he flew. "I think" and "maybe" are shear speculations. Conflicting information is what we have to deal with in these studies. It also looks like Teekay was satisfied with the responses he received.

Thanks Dan and Greg for using the correct identifiers Halb. D.II, D.III and D.V.