E.V/D.VIII wing camo

[Troy Raines]

Just visited the wwi modeling page website (I am not a member there). They were doing a little bit of Aerodrome bashing, and were a bit critical of some of the theories and individuals on this site. No, I'm not trying to start a war, I mean no offense to anyone on the modeling website. Their topic was the "new" theory of Fok.EV/DVIII wing streaking. No one at the modeling page was offering any solution/research to the theory just general disagreement that the "streaking" existed. To their credit the discussion questioned that if the "streaking" was present why was there nothing about it in Allied reports on the aircraft? Good point.

Now, I have been reading the threads on this topic for 3/4 months. There are several different threads and I still have not gotten through them all so forgive me if I am beating a dead horse. I am truly impressed at the level of knowledge and research put forth here on The Aerodrome on the Fok. EV/DVIII "streaking" topic.

OK, my question/observation on this. The machine was issued as the Fokker EV. There were wing failures and the aircraft was withdrawn while new wings were built and installed. The aircraft was being reissued as the DVIII when the war ended. Is it posssible that as the EV the wings were in "streaked" camo but the new wings installed on the reissued DVIII were painted in a solid color? That could explain why no "streaking" was reported on captured aircraft by the Allies after the war.

[deljon]

Were there any Allied reports that the wing was a solid color??????

Del

[Troy Raines]

deljon, I don't know, that's part of what I hope to find out with this thread. I have a fair amount of info on the airplane but I don't remember reading much of anything about Allied reports on the bird.

[EricGoedkoop]

Yikes!

Here we go!







This is one of those horses that will continue to show faint signs of life until the Heavens open and drop a miraculous scrap of of something in our laps - and therefore will continue to be beaten. The materials list is one of the best clues right now and I buy a multi-colored wing, but I remain skeptical about the "streaked" application. My pet Unproven and Unprovable Dilettante's Theory on the whole Fokker issue is that 1) the streaked finish on fabric as seen on the Dr.I, early D.VII, Fokker-built AEGs and other assorted machines was multi-colored, at least two and possibly as many as four; 2) the E.V / D.VIII wings were also multi-colored, stained in large patches; 3) the "streaking" seen in some photos of said wings is more likely a combination of wood grain and hasty ("efficient") application of stain than a deliberate technique; and 4) such a multi-colored camouflage pattern on said wings would probably not merit very much special comment because it's really not at all dissimilar to the camouflage seen on many, many German aircraft prior to the introduction of the lozenge fabric - it's simply a version of the "terrain camo" just like, for example, the mauve and green patches seen on Albatros wings.

I'm not sure I agree color-wise with Achim's olive and light blue version of the fabric streaking, but I'm 100% with him on how these finishes were created: "I just take a brush and paint that thing." I reckon that applies to the E.V / D.VIII wing as much as it does to the Dr.Is and D.VIIs.




Commence Deriding the Armchair Historians . . . . . . now.

[Troy Raines]

EricGoedkoop, My mistake, please substitute "multi-color" for "streaking". No I did not mean anything like the Dr.I type finish. The multi-color finish is what I'm interested in. And I'm not trying to prove or disprove if it was done just wondering if the multi-color could have been on the original issue EV wing and the solid color on the later issue DVIII. Are there any contempory reports, Allied or otherwise, that mention multi-color and/or solid color wings on EV/DVIII? If not and the materials list is all the hard evidence that's out there then my question is irrelevant and I have my answer. Sorry about any confusion, like I said I haven't gotten through all the threads of the subject. Thanks for your reply and opinion.

[EricGoedkoop]

Originally Posted by Troy Raines

EricGoedkoop, My mistake, please substitute "multi-color" for "streaking". No I did not mean anything like the Dr.I type finish. The multi-color finish is what I'm interested in.

I suspect there was actually more continuity between the Dr.I-type finish and the E.V / D.VIII than is generally accepted. The change from fabric to plywood and lacquer to water-based dye or stain would result in a rather different finished product, of course - but I believe multi-colored camouflage was standard Fokker practice across all the types mentioned. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be a whole lot of E.V / D.VIII photos freely available that shed any light on the issue, but if you start looking at the Tripes and streaked D.VIIs you may see what I mean. There's a lot of resistance to the idea, even from those who support the multi-colored E.V / D.VIII wing - but the way I figure it multi-colored streaking is more evidence for the multi-colored E.V / D.VIII wing and vice versa.

In any event, solid olive wings seem unlikely given the actual and circumstantial evidence we currently have - not to mention the fact that it would have been pretty lousy camouflage!

[Troy Raines]

I like your train of thought. I also believe in the multi-color streaking(if I may borrow your term). It always seemed to me that there were solid color bands on early Fokker DVII fuselages and on Dr.I's in particular. I just figured the people who wrote books and published articles had access to far better photos and could see things I couldn't. I have read somewhere that when the British compared their solid PC10/12 finish to German printed/banded camos the German patterns blended into the backgrounds better. The progression in Fokker camo from one airframe to the next works for me.

[StephenLawson]

Fokker E.V - D.VIII wing camouflage

"...Fortunately we do have some clues as the original E.V wing drawing No.33050/1 still exists (I have a copy thanks to the generosity of Mr P. Grosz) and in the materials list of the title block are the details of the paints used, in English they translate to: - New True Green, Azin Violet, Azure Blue & Mocha Brown and for each of these the requirement is 20 grams of product. The "remarks" column describes this product as "holzbeize" which is wood stain..."


The comment that later D.VIII had solid colour wings has some basis. It would certainly help the riggers and fitters denote easily what wings were in what stack. That way there would be no re-application of the substandard wings. But this is just a possibility. Re-inforced strength was never a large concern for airframes at Fokker.

The stain makes a great deal of sense if you understand Fokker's business practices. For instance;

Some of the original Fokker built airframes have undergone recent scrutiny in Germany. The welds to the tubular sections are substandard by today's evaluation. Up on inspecting them we see microscopic airbubbles throughout the weld seams inspected. Why? Because it got hot in the Gorries / Schwerin work sheds, especially where welding was taking place. They would open the large doors at each end of the sheds and the windows to get an airflow through through the building. flowing air through a welding arc and what do you get? a substandard weld.

This is a symptom of the work at the time. For the wings the piano company that Fokker employed to build the wings knew wood but not aircraft engineering.

Quality control in Fokker Co. of 1918 said we get by with what we can. Now translate that to the camouflage. Remembering this as a govt. validated practice or the aircraft would not be accepted and a reich plate riveted on to the cowling, its easy to see the stretched use of materials to keep the aircraft at factory specs in weight, and on a steady acceptance rate. Photo evidence by Langdon, Dan San Abbott and Greg VanWyngarden tell us that at least some E.V / D.VIII aircraft with streaked wings made it into enemy hands at the aircraft turn in points on 11 Nov.1918.

This alone tells us that depending on what was available during a given production run we may well be surprised what colours were actually used to cover E.V / D.VIII wings in those last months of 1918. Labor was plenty at Fokker it was the materials we see as being stretched.

Note if you will the lozenge fabric used by Fokker. He tried to use his own 4 colour when ever possible even selling some to OAW (a concern he had a vested interest in) and Albatros. Yet even at the end of the war more and more Fokker components were starting to use the 5 colour fabric. We note this even on Fokker E.V 149/18 which is owned by the Lafayette Foundation. the fin (and possibly the rudder.) are in German five colour. The Fokker D.VI airframes could be seen with both 4 colour on the fuselage and 5 colur fabrics on wings as early as spring 1918.

There maybe no absolutes just reasonable possibilities. These "Schools of Thought" are just that. I do know that Pete Grosz would shake his head and say. "...prove it!" To study anything you have to know the people your talking about and the conditions that they had to work in.

[Troy Raines]

Thanks guys, my questions have been answered far better than I had hoped. Wow, so much info to study, I feel like a freshman in WWI aviation 101 class!

StephenLawson, the link you provided is much appreciated, I had seen it before but didn't get all the way through it, then "lost" it again. I have been reviewing what I have on the Fok. EV/DVIII looking for streaked, multi color wing evidence. I don't have much really, Albatros datafile/articles, C&C, WWI Aero, etc. Not the best photo quality but think I can see things you and EricGoedkoop suggest.

Don't remember hearing that four-color printed fabric was a Fokker product before joining this forum. So many archives, so little time.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Troy Raines:

I don't know who they are bashing on the WW1model website. I would guess the are members of the Flat Earth Society.
In 1999 while I was visiting the A.E.Ferko Collection at the University of Texas, Dallas I discovered that the wings on the Fok.E.V were finished in a streaked camouflage like the Fok.D.I through the Fok.D.VII (early) and the Fokker built AEG C.IV(Fok). The difference was instead of one color as in all the other aircraft it was done in four wood stains. (Fok.E.V Bill of Materials) All the other aircraft were done in one color in varying viscousities. Also I do not believe the Fok.F.I or Dr.I were two colors, olive brown over sky blue.
I have the a copy of the Fokker Flugzeugwerke Fok.F.I wing drawings and their is not sufficient sky blue to dope both surfaces with the amount allowed.
Going back to the Fok.E.V. When I got back home I went through all the photos I have of the Fok.E.V (The Fok.D.VIII did not go operational with any Jasta. It was finished in the same manner as the Fok.E.V.) Once I knew what I was looking for I found it in most of the photographs. After some logical rationalization I came to the conclusion the upper surface was stained in true green and mocha (coffee brown) and the under surface in violet azin and azure blue. After the wings were stained they were given several coats of varnish. It is readily evident in most photos.
I introduced the four color staining at OTF Meeting at Dayton in 2003.
I convined Glenn Torrance, that Peter Ensliegh Castle had it wrong in 1961 when he did the color plate for the Fokker D.VIII profile. That is the origin of the olive green wing on the Fok.E.V/D.VIII. I can never understand why they call the Fok.E.V the D.VIII. I was never issued to any Jasta, what was issued was the Fok.E.V, it saw combat and scored a couple of victories.
The RAF pilots saw the Fok.E.V in action, they never saw a Fok.D.VIII in action period. Please give me the title of the web site, I want to get on board a rattle a few cages.
Blue skies,
Dan-San