MvR's DVII

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Dave W:
I am aware of the acceptance problem in March 1918, I doubt that any were presented to the Bauaufsicht 13 for inspection and flight test in February 1918. I find it rather difficult to believe that the Bauaufsicht would sit on these machines for a month. How can anyone explain the missing numbers of March 1918 and only 19 listed in the Front Bestand for 30 April 1918. I went through this excersize in the Article I did for OFT a few years ago. If the 19 represent only a partial listing it then would make sense. Why were they not issued to the units before Jasta 10 got them some time about 21 May 1918.
I come up with 24 in March 36 to 16 April 1918 = 60 machines, should be listed listed in inventory and 33 in transit. By 21 May 1918, there should be
93 (March and April production) and 35 throught 8 May 1918 =128 at the Front, between the Air parks and those in the Jasta. Fok.D.VII at Schwerin or in transit through 21 May 1918 are 48 D.VII. I still do not understand the delay in delivery to the Jagdstaffeln.
I refer you to "The Fokker D.VII in Service", OTF Vol.15,NNo.3, Fall 2000. you might wish to review this article. It covers deliveries by all three manufacturers.
Blue Skies,
Dan-San

[Dave_Watts]

Hi Dan-San,

I'm with you, so bear with me and be patient. You bring up very good points.

I did the math on the 24 aircraft accepted by March 30th. I can't see denying this extrapolation/deduction. I think instead if doubting if these aircraft were produced, we should look closer at the Front line strength and surrounding circumstances.

You stated, "...I doubt that any were presented to the Bauaufsicht 13 for inspection and flight test in February 1918."

Bauaufsicht 13 was the Armee inspectorate assigned to Fokker Werks, stationed right there at Schwerin.

I stated, "...we have 24 aircraft accepted in February or March. Certainly the lion's share would have been accepted in March, or more likely, mid to late March."

To reiterate, in response you stated, "...I doubt that any were presented to the Bauaufsicht 13 for inspection and flight test in February 1918."

I agree as evidenced from my previous posting. In response to your posting I'll say; It is possible two or possibly three D.VIIs were accepted in February, the V.11/II as 227/18, V.18 as 228/18 and as a very long shot possibly V.21 as 229/18. I'm guessing these would have been accepted at Adlershof not Schwerin. The reason I didn't state this before was I didn't feel comfortable with the supposition, but I'll throw it out there in rebuttal to your statement of "...I doubt any...". Originally, my posting was the facts, we know February and March acceptance sheets are missing, therefore unknown, so when I referred to the pool of aircraft deduced to having been accepted during this period, the safe statement is to leave it at that. I still "believe" it was possible for 227/18 and 228/18 to have been accepted in February.

You stated, "How can anyone explain the missing numbers of March 1918 and only 19 listed in the Front Bestand for 30 April 1918."

I apologize if you have already thought of the following, I don't have your article at hand.

Referencing Imrie's Dr.I book on page 120, he states on the Dr.I acceptances versus Front line strength;

Accepted
August 2
September 12
October 32

At the Front
August 2
Sept. no report
October 17

So we have a total of 46 aircraft accepted by the end of October, but only 17 on line strength. Alex states, "The Frontbestand figures (which are for the last day of the months given)...". This means 17 for the end of October.

Accepted to Front Line ratio = 46 to 17.

With the wing failures and grounding I feel we can't use any data beyond this date for the Dr.I.

Let me now dig into the acceptance sheets and do some more longhand.

D.VII Acceptances;

February + March = 24 (plus possibly 2 "adjustments" for 525/18 + 526/18 V.22 + V.24)

April

231
239
241
246
251
255
257 (accepted again on July 19th?)
258 - 273
275 - 283
285 - 293
296 - 301
304 - 305
307 - 310
312 - 313
315 - 317
319 - 322
327 - 328
331
338
341
343
345

April = 69
February + March = 24
Total = 93

Accepted to Front Line ratio = 93 to 19.

This is a ratio of almost exactly double that of the Dr.I, but the Dr.I didn't ramp up in production as quickly as did the D.VII. The production period is almost exactly the same between the two aircraft; two for the first month, then two months of production. The D.VII was produced/accepted by double that of the Dr.I for those next two months. The front line count was almost exactly the same.

Just for exercise let's look at the acceptances for two types as compared month by month.

Dr.I
August 2
Sept. 12
Oct. 32

D.VII
February 2
March 22
April 69

Let's look even closer, day by day for the last month of acceptances for both aircraft types.

Dr.I

October acceptances;

1 - 0
2 - 0
3 - 0
4 - 0
5 - 0
6 - 2 (122, 123)
7 - 0

First week = 2

8 - 0
9 - 0
10 - 4 (114, 121, 125, 128)
11 - 1 (132)
12 - 1 (117)
13 - 0
14 - 0

Second week = 6

15 - 3 (124, 127, 141)
16 - 0
17 - 0
18 - 3 (120, 129, 138)
19 - 0
20 - 0
21 - 0

Third week = 6

22 - 0
23 - 1 (130)
24 - 3 (133, 134, 135)
25 - 0
26 - 0
27 - 5 (136, 137, 139, 140, 142)
28 - 0
29 - 0
30 - 5 (108, 143, 146, 148, 151)
31 - 4 (144, 145, 150, 155)

Last week = 18

D.VII

April acceptances;

1 - 0
2 - 0
3 - 0
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 1
7 - 0

First week = 6

8 - 0
9 - 6
10 - 6
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 0
14 - 0

Second week = 19

15 - 9
16 - 5
17 - 1
18 - 0
19 - 5
20 - 2
21 - 0

Third week = 22

22 - 5
23 - 4
24 - 2
25 - 3
26 - 0
27 - 3
28 - 0
29 - 5

Last week = 22

I'm not sure how this would effect the "roll call", but follow me out on a very small branch, let's call it a twig. I know this is simplistic beyond reason, but follow me.

If we take the number of 17 for on line front numbers from the Dr.I, let's see what date we arrive at to get that total of the first 17 acceptances to be the 17 at the front. 2 from August, + 12 from September, + 2 for the First week of October, + 1 from the four accepted on the 10th of October = the first 17 acceptances.

In summary; 2 from August, + 12 from Sept. + (2 + 1) up to the 10th of October = 17 (the front line strength for October).

I know this is a crazy thin twig, but if we apply the date of the 10th of the third month of production to the D.VII we get; 2 from February, + 22 from March, + 6 for the First week of April, + 6 from the Second week of April, + 1 from the six on the 10th of April = 37.

In summary; 2 from February, + 22 from March, + (6 + 6 + 1) up to the 10th of October = 37.

To compare the ratios again we arrive at;

Dr. I

46 to 17

D.VII

93 to 19

But when compared to the Dr.I as to days passed to get to front line quantity we get a ratio of;

93 to 37

So instead of having 37 on Front line strength as I determined we have 19. Not a huge difference, but considerable. Dan-San, you can see how my "math" was done differently from yours. I understand there were lost aircraft on the Dr.I so the count is not exact, but the numbers are so similar at the beginning for the two aircraft types, I think the trip out on the limb holds some weight, albeit sheer speculation.

Here's another answer that may be easier to swallow.

While perusing Alex's book I read on page 53 in reference to the Pfalz Dr.I, "Type-tested at Adlershof in October 1917, it was planned to produce 100 machines of this type and introduce them to the front simultaneously in January 1918, doubtless as the equipment of a complete Jagdgeschwader."

This certainly appears to me to be a likely answer to the "hoarding" of aircraft possibly at Schwerin or transiting Flieger Lager West at Aachen and therefore not on the front line roll call.

As you know but for the others, we go from a Front line strength of 19 at the end of April and on the next inventory, we have 407 at the end of June. With Albatros and OAW pumping out aircraft, if the Flugzeugministri or Idflieg wanted to go with the mass strength idea, this would make sense. I speculate they had a front line strength of 100 by the end of May, achieving this "goal".

There must of been a "slew" of D.VIIs rolling down the tracks in May!

Just for the hell of it and in the original spirit of this thread, the V.4's were accepted by ZAK on August 16th, Voss first flew 103/17 during the evening of August 28th. Let's see, that's twelve days between acceptance and the end pilot flying the aircraft. I think this says everything with regards to IF the powers that be wanted to have a D.VII in MvR's hands they could have with at least 228/18 or 229/18 or possibly others as with this F.I we have 12 days from acceptance to the pilots hands. Theoretically, any of the March aircraft could have made it, again if the powers had wanted it.

Very best,
Dave W.

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

I thought you might find it of interest to see one of these Armee acceptance sheets I was referring to, this one is for September of 1917. The Dr.I acceptances were the ones I mentioned in the previous posting. Arrows are pointing to Dr.I acceptances.



13th
104/17 and 106/17

15th
107/17

19th
111/17

20th
109/17

22nd
115/17

24th
112/17

26th
113/17, 110/17, 116/17

28th
119/17

29th
118/17

Total 12.

Compiled on October 2nd, 1917

The left side of the page are aircraft accepted, the right side are aircraft dispatched. "Rep." is for Reparaturen (repaired aircraft).

Enjoy!

Best,
Dave W.

[redalb2253]

Thanks everyone for their input (those that were on topic) I've decided on a late model build fokker all BLOOD red with 5 color loz on the bottom of the wings and fuselage and late crosses on the wings,and I'll bet every allied pilot would have crapped themselves if they saw this thing coming.