Ltn. Santa Maria confusion

[rabu]

An earlier thread mentions a Ltn Santa Maria with Squad 54, but I have other information linking Ltn Santa Maria to the French Esc 86?

The large tailed comet was well known and was apparently used by Von Bertrab (Jasta 30) and an unidentified pilot in Jasta 23B.

I have a scan from a book that shows what looks like the exact same French N17 with the same comet insignia on the side, and the rudder has been painted white with the cross, and it states,
"Nieuport 17 captured intact by the Germans in September 1916 and extensively flown at the Adlershof test centre. The fulelage decoration and the sigle Vickers armament indicate a French-operated machine, and note that the completely circular engine cowling has joining ribs at the top and not on the sides as shown in the other photograph. (A Imrie)"

Yet, in another book, Color Profiles of World War1 Combat Planes by William Green, this same plane is shown on p14 and it states,
"An ex RFC Ni.17 in German Hands"

[rabu]

No one's going to take a stab at this?

[gilles]

Hello Rabu

The pilot was Lt Joseph Maria from esc.77. He landed behind german lines on october 23, 1916.

I guess that most of the confusions came from the lack of infos from the french archives.
As the pilot is always named Santa Maria, it might be a very old error, maybe from the original german reports.
I don't know why the Nieuport is sometimes labelled ex-RFC and don't know any connection with esc 54.
The confusion with esc 86 come from the comet insigna. However this squadron insigna looked more like a winged star (very similar to the one the pilots wore on their collars) and anyway esc 86 was created in april 1917, so after Maria's capture.
Maria's comet was a personal insigna and not the squadron one. Esc77 was created in september 1916 and Maria was the first loss the following month. At that time the squadron had not choose yet its insigna.

[rabu]

Gills:

Thanks a bunch..that really helps clear things up. So Lt. Joseph "Santa" Maria was actually in Esc 77, not 86. This jives with some other things I read that he was shot down by a Kunz of Jasta 7 on that same date you mentioned.
Another reference shows a picture of the N17 with the exact same comet. with rondels and tail painted over with the German cross and it states that it was captured intact by the Germans in September 1916.. close enough. It too has the single vickers and the cowling seams at the top location. It says that it was flown at the Adiershof test center.. I wonder if it was ever flown in combay by the Germans?

[Soderbaum]

Hi Gilles

One original German source, also published in some newspaper from the period, is the monthly list of captured a/c....in this list he is named "Josef Maria"


Gunnar

[rabu]

Here's my version of the captured Maria Noop for Over Flanders Field Phase II.. notice the painted over roundels and tail color which would show through the paint over.

[Taz]

rabu- That looks really great. Really captures the Nieuport well.

Taz
Terry Phillips