True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Taz]

Langdon- Beats me. The aircraft is obviously a Jasta 6 aircraft and may not be "his" Triplane as stated in the caption on page 171 of Paul's book. We know 454/17 was his regular Dr.I until his bad crash on 13 March 1918. Lothar scored all his victories with Jasta 11 and was never assigned to Jasta 6 as far as I know. He was JG I commander well after the Dr.Is had been replaced. I know MvR used Jasta 6 Dr.I 525/17 when he visited Jasta 5, but have no idea why LvR would be flying one of their aircraft unless he and MvR went somewhere together and MvR requested Jasta 6 to support the flight. There was some passing around of early JG I Dr.Is, but they went from Jasta 11 to Jasta 6 (example Dr.I 119/17), not the other way around.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
If you accept the premise that the all red triplane in front of the fourth Bessaneau Hangar is Dr.I 425/17, then all the photos taken at LeChelle Airfield are of DR.I 425/17. And according to extant records he did not fly Dr.I 425/17 until sometime after 12 April 1918 while based at Cappy Airfield. Then there were no photographs taken of DR.I 477/17!
If you accept the premise that it was Dr.I 477/17 in front of the Bessaneau Hangar at Le Chelle Airfield, then all the photographs are of DR.I 477/17.
Then there were no photographs taken of DR,I 425/17 at LeChelle Airfield.
The problem is, there is only one all red Dr.I at LeChelle Airfield. The question is, "Did the photographer take pictures of the Fok.DR.I was currently being flown by MvR, or did he take pictures of a hangar queen according to records, that was not flown by MvR.?"
There is only one all red triplane at Le Chelle Airfield, just one!
Blue skies,
Dan

[Taz]

Dan-San- And if we accept that the aircraft in Alex' Triplane photo #95 and earlier posts in this thread is WN 2103, then we have photos of both 425/17 and 477/17at Lechelle and 477/17 matches MvR's descriptions in his combat reports. Nowhere does MvR state 477/17 was all red. We then accept that the only all red Dr.I at Lechelle was 425/17 as stated by Alex Imrie, Ed Ferko and others in several publications. Whether 425/17 was a hangar queen is a moot point. Because of its special nature (specially painted all red on top for MvR based on the fabric evidence), it would naturally attract the attention of photographers, as did his earlier Albatros fighters. Greg VanWyngarden's two proven photos of 127/17 at Lechelle show this aircraft did not receive the attention of 425/17, even though MvR was scoring victories in it during that period. 127/17 is also painted as described in MvR's combat reports.


Taz
Terry Phillips

[Langdon]

I concur with Taz's statement above. Where was 152/17 at this point in time and was it the only other all red tri-plane (albeit it was only all red later in its service life)? If 152/17 was not at LeChelle or was not all red at that stage then 425/17 was the only all red tri-plane there. 477/17 was far from all red at the time it was photographed.

Dan-San you do not seem to be able to comprehend the fact that just because 425/17 had no reported victories prior to the 19th does not mean it didn't exist or was not flown by MvR, although you could argue a case for the latter. Hanger queen or not it doesn't matter, it looks as though the aircraft was personalised for MvR at the factory.

Dan-San, are you still of the opinion that MvR's combat reports are fake?

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Langdon,

You were talking about 152/17 and its state of finish while at Lechelle.

Here are some photos to show the early and later stages.


152/17.


Photo taken at Lechelle in early April, Imrie reports;
152/17 at extreme right of top image.
152/17 at left of middle image.
152/17 at right of bottom image.
The "late" cross change on the fuselage and rudder is same as done on 425/17.


152/17 late. Note large torn hole in the base of the rudder fabric. You can see grass thru it.

Photos courtesy Imrie.

Best,
Dave W.

[Langdon]

Dave,

You beat me to it as I was about to modify my post above, I thought 152/17 was all red at LeChelle and had a look through Imrie's book to confirm it. Well observed concerning the tear through the bottom of the rudder. Obviously the aircraft was out of service at this stage, Imrie thought as much based on the incorrect national markings at this stage in mid April.

Langdon

[Taz]

Dave, Langdon- It does appear 152/17 was all red at some point at Lechelle. Looks like it was being converted from 127/17 and 477/17 color scheme to all red while there. The process was obviously stopped at the interim thick cross level before MvR was killed and that is how it was later displayed. My assumption had always been that it was given a red coat of paint for the display, but that would seem to be wrong or there would not have been peeling paint around the fuselage cross and a hole in the rudder in the one photo. Learn something new every day.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[JohnFitz]

Answered my own question.

[Biber]

Originally Posted by Taz

Dave, Langdon- It does appear 152/17 was all red at some point at Lechelle. Looks like it was being converted from 127/17 and 477/17 color scheme to all red while there. The process was obviously stopped at the interim thick cross level before MvR was killed and that is how it was later displayed. My assumption had always been that it was given a red coat of paint for the display, but that would seem to be wrong or there would not have been peeling paint around the fuselage cross and a hole in the rudder in the one photo. Learn something new every day.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Weren't the pictures of the triplane on display in Berlin posted recently - last 6mos or so? Anybody know where they were posted? Would be interested to see them again. Don't remember the hole in the rudder fabric on the display plane.

b

[Biber]

Strange, I found another picture from the Zeughais of 152/17 (via Fokker Dr1.com - not the picture I was referring to above) and there is no hole in the rudder, just some schmutz. Granted the picture given above does suggest a hole. Which I never noticed before.

B