True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Taz]

Biber- From photos of Dr.I 152/17 taken at the Berlin Zeughaus Museum (see Imrie's Triplane photo #154), the rudder was repaired, but the peeling paint on the starboard fuselage cross panel was left as is. The rudder in the Museum photos appears to have a dark outline, which is not present on the pre-Museum photo Imrie #153 shown at the bottom of Dave Watts' multi-photo post here. I have an original postcard of 152/17 from the Museum, but it is head-on so neither feature discussed can be distuinguished. That postcard is also printed on page 181 of Leaman's Dr.I book.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Taz

The rudder in the Museum photos appears to have a dark outline, which is not present on the pre-Museum photo Imrie #153 shown at the bottom of Dave Watts' multi-photo post here.
Taz Terry Phillips

To me it appears that the red outline is just the white paint wearing off and the red from 152/17's earlier paint job showing through.

I do not have a scanner so I can not post a photo but if any of you have Fokker V5/Dr.1 by Schuster and Engles published by Shiffer books there is a photo of a plane on page 35 with a mechanic getting his cigerette lite while others turn the prop on the plane. It is identified as a Jasta 11 plane, it has similiar features as the pictures of 152/17 after it was painted red. The pictures posted above showing 152/17's starboard side appear to show some "dents" or repaired damage on the fuselage where the dantume line should be. The plane I am mentioning in the Shiffer book appears to have dents and damage in the same area, but it has a flare rack which no known photos of 152/17 show. It just may be a copy of a dark print but it appears overpainted in a dark color (red?) except the undersurfaces of the wings which appear lighter.

CWatson

[Balloon_Buster]

So the rudder wasn't red, it was white?

[Taz]

CW- Beats me. What would cause the paint to wear off all around the rudder?

Taz
Terry Phillips

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Taz

CW- Beats me. What would cause the paint to wear off all around the rudder?

Taz
Terry Phillips

I do not know but maybe the paints were of none compatible types, look how the red has worn off the white crossfields. It is hard to believe as much as we have been discussing MvR's triplanes that these planes were in service for a few months at the most and in some picture look the worse for wear.

CWatson

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
The question has been asked, "Where is Dr.I 152/17?" After his 65th victory on 20 March 1918, Fok.DR.I 152/17 was dissassembled at Avenes-le-Sec and shipped to the Zeughaus in Berlin. It was painted all red at the Zeughaus.
On 20 March 1918, Jage.Nr.1 moved to their forward landing field at Awoingt.
Jage.Nr.1 remained at Awoingt Airfield until 25 March 1918. On 20 March 1918, MvR acquired Fok.DR.I 477/17. On 27 March 1918, MvR received DR.I 127/17, it was in standard factory finish. By 6 April 1918 The upper wing, cowling,struts ,wheel covers and empennage were painted red.
In none of the photographs are there any identifable photos of DR.I 477/17 with a simular paint scheme, in fact there are no identifable photos of DR.I 477/17, that is where the serial number is readible. So MvR gained TEN victories on a plane, that as far as we know, was never photographed while at LeChelle Airfield. Absolutely incredulous!.
But you can accept an identication without a record on assumptions.
Fiat,
Dan

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

Do you accept the MvR combat records as a true record?

The photo identified by Alex Imrie and confirmed by Taz has the correct werks number for 477/17. The fact that we have not seen its military number is irrelevant.

152/17 was painted all red prior to its removal to the Zeughaus as is evident in photo 153 of Imries book on page 106. If the aircraft was repainted for display, don't you think they would have tidied up the cross and its field? Also note the photos of the all red triplane at LeChelle with stacking pads on its wings, this is a different aircraft to 425/17 (or as you would have it 477/17) so what aircraft do you suppose that was if not 152/17?

You mentioned that 152/17 was dispatched to Berlin after MvR's 65 victory, on what date was the aircraft shipped?

[Taz]

CW- I took a look at the aircraft on page 35 of Achim's book, and even though the caption says Jasta 11, the two aircraft look to me like the heavily overpainted and much used Dr.Is passed on from JG I to Jasta 5 in May 1917. Really a personal observation.

Balloon_Buster- Jasta 11 used a bunch of red paint on rudders to reduce the white area around the original Dr.I rudder crosses to a white border (5 cm (2" if you hate metric) Dan-San?) until clarification came down from Idflieg that rudders were supposed to be white about the same time, or along with, instructions to go to the first configuration Balkenkreuz markings. All the rudders then were overpainted white to go with the new Balkenkreuz cross (repeating myself with Balkencross cross).

Dan-San- If 152/17 went to Berlin that early, that would make the aircraft in Dave's line-up posts from Alex' Triplane the only all-red Dr.I at Lechelle and either 425/17 or 477/17 depending on whether you believe photo #95 is WN 2103 or WN 2112. Need to have UTD do a high res scan on the original image and see if it is any better than the ones Alex, Peter and I used. I will get Aaron to use some of his image sharpening techniques on my image and see if he can pull out more detail. If we can show for sure the WN is 2103, that will put this to bed forever, right? Everything else then becomes smoke and we can go back to fighting about important stuff like F.I cowling colors and whether 454/17's top wing was thinly overpainted in yellow.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Taz

CW- I took a look at the aircraft on page 35 of Achim's book, and even though the caption says Jasta 11, the two aircraft look to me like the heavily overpainted and much used Dr.Is passed on from JG I to Jasta 5 in May 1917. Really a personal observation.

Taz,

Thanks for taking a look. I to got admit that the damage along the dantum line looks similar to me between the two aircraft and it is a heck of a coincidence that the only two Dr1s I have seen with that damage have completely overpainted fuselages and upper surfaces.

You mentioned a higher quality scan of this picture from UTD, How does one go about getting these? I contacted UTD's Dr. Carlson awhile back asking the procedures for purchasing scans of a few aircraft (basicly MvR's planes on this thread) and he sent me a link on the procedures on doing it and I basicly understood one had to be there in person. If I am incorrect could you please inform me on who to contact?

Thanks,
CWatson

[Taz]

CW- Unfortunately it probably will take a personal visit until they get more of the collection digitized. Digitizing that entire collection would almost be a life's effort for one person. Might be worthwhile to devote a couple of months a year in that direction after I retire in a year or so. You probably need to know someone who is making a trip if you cannot go yourself. Tough to go unless you are rich, retired, or do this for a living and I fit none of those categories.

Taz
Terry Phillips