True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Biber]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Gentlemen:
... Fok.DR.I 152/17 ...It was painted all red at the Zeughaus.

Looks like they might have missed a few spots.

B

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
I am airmailing to you today a enlarged segment copy of the photo from Alex Imrie's "GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS JUNE 1917-1918, page 12. The copy clearly shows the upper wing cross field to be white and the wing is in streaked camouflage. IT IS NOT PAINTED RED as claimed by Alex Imrie.
I would appreciate it if you would post the enlarged photo on this Thread.
There were a series of photos taken at LeChelle Airfield on 26 March 1918, according to the caption on page 13. In Peter Grosz's DR.I photo collection there were several photos taken on this of the flight line. On some later date another series of photos were taken at LeChelle Airfield on what appears to be an overcast day (No shadows) of the flight line, at this point in time the all red DR.I has the crosses modified to the balken cross form.
The two events aid in defining time. Jage.Nr.I was at LeChelle from 26 March to 11 April 1918.
Blue skies,
Dan

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I do not accept the translated MvR combat reports as valid documents. there are several errors and inconsistancies in the translations and document format.
In regard to the photo of Fok.DR.I on page 106 of Alex Imries's book, "The Fokker Triplane", no where in the cation to photo 153 does Alex state it was painted all red in the field, in fact he specifically states the opposite, qoute:
"It is not known when this photograph as taken, but this could have been a few months(or even longer) after the aircraft was used, and the period and manner of its storage could explain th detoriation."
Fok.DR.I was never at LeChelle Airfield. There was only one all red Fok.DR.I at LeChelle Airfield, I believe it to be Fok.DR.I 477/17. You believe it to be Dr.I 425/17. What has got in the way of all of this, are the disputible MvR combat reports. Those who accept the reports to be valid, would believe the all red machine is Dr.I 425/17. Then the problem becomes, "where is Dr.I 477/17?"
Blue skies,
Dan

[Taz]

Dan-San- I will be gone two weeks starting tomorrow. Have a good print of the photo in question. Will work when I get back.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[RED BARON RETURNS]

There was only one all red Fok.DR.I at LeChelle Airfield, I believe it to be Fok.DR.I 477/17. You believe it to be Dr.I 425/17. What has got in the way of all of this, are the disputible MvR combat reports. Those who accept the reports to be valid, would believe the all red machine is Dr.I 425/17. Then the problem becomes, "where is Dr.I 477/17?"
Blue skies,
Dan[/QUOTE]



What are the chances of 425/17 and 477/17 being the same plane in the photo's ?
JP

[Rick]

Originally Posted by RED BARON RETURNS

What are the chances of 425/17 and 477/17 being the same plane ?
JP

Somewhere between slim and none.

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I if you look through Alex Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane" more fully you will see he does in fact state that the aircraft was all red at that time. See the caption to photo #99 page 68. He states that the aircraft next to 588/17... "is believed to be Richthofen's all red triplane, but since both 152/17 and 425/17 were painted the same way at that time, positive identification cannot be made. However, the presents of leading-edge protection fittings on the middle and lower wings suggests that this is in fact 152/17. The date is early April (Wenzel first arrived at LeChelle on 2 April) and Balkenkreuze on both triplanes have just been applied and have cross arm ratios of approximately 1:3." Alex mentions the leading-edge protection fittings because he noted that they are not present on the photos of 425/17 (disputed) and therefore they are different aircraft.

You are correct that the photo caption #153 does not mention when the aircraft was painted all red but why would it as this has been discussed previously as I mention above. You suggest he specifically states the opposite but you are wrong, what he states is that it is not known when the photo was taken.

If you look at the next caption on the same page #154 you will see where he mentions... "that it (152/17) was still in exactly the same condition as shown in the aerodrome view. It is praiseworthy that no attempt was made to renovate the aircraft or its finish, and shows the historical dedication of the Zeughaus authorities."

On the subject of the combat reports I note you are only concerned about their translation to English and have therefore performed your own. I would be interested in your translation of MvR's description of his aircraft 152/17, 425/17 and 477/17?

If you look at the photo depicted as 477/17 in Imrie's book you can clearly see that the top wing is painted a solid colour by the poorly painted leading edge with its wavy intersection with the under-surface colour. Also the intersection is much lower than the standard practise. It seems to me we have photos of all MvR's Fokker triplanes.

[Dave_Watts]

Hi Dan-San,

Trying to help you out. Here is a scan of the image you wanted Taz to post. It's a monster! I scanned the whole image, then the left and right halves. Tell me which aircraft to zoom-in on. I'm certain there are much better prints of this image in other books that will help us out once I know which aircraft you are talking about.

I love this photo!


Whole image...panoramic!


Left side zoom-in.


Right side zoom-in.

Best,
Dave W.

[Dave_Watts]

For interest's sake, here are two photos of MvR's 127/17 reportedly at Lechelle in March, via Leaman.


127/17 at left.


Zoom-in of above 127/17.


Later, 127/17 still at left. MvR seen approaching aircraft.


Zoom-in of above. MvR's familiar fur boots can be seen held by a mechanic or friend.

I just wanted to show the treatment of wing and fuselage crosses on this aircraft at this point in time.

Best,
Dave W.

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Dan-San,

Here is a good image of the plane on the left of the LeChelle Panoramic photo. Is this the one you referred to?


Image courtesy Nowarra; "Eisernes Kreuz und Balken Kreuz".

Langdon suggested to me this is possibly the plane Dan-San is referring to;

Sorry for the quality, but it's a zoom of a printed photo! Look above at the larger clearer image to see it smaller, but clearer. The plane is at the left in the very back of the image in front of the rearmost hanger behind two other triplanes.

Best,
Dave W.