True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
For the record, Fok.DR.I 152/17 was never at Lechelle Airfield. After MvR's last flight on 18 March 1918, at which time it was still [painted in the scheme of the alleged MvR combat repot, See, THE FOKKER TRIPLANE, page 109, second paragraph. Quote:
"Therefore, some time after Richthofen's last victory on 18 Maqrch 1918 and doubtless intended for further use in an all-red scheme as Richthofen regular aircraft." end quote.
Alex Imrie does not know when or where it was painted all red. It was not intended to be used by MvR ever again. He had acquired Fok. DR.I 477/17.
He goes on with some, could have and would have suppositions, no facts, suppositions. There is no validity in what he has stated.
In regard to the acquistion of Fok.DR.I 425/17, I refer you to: "Richthofer and the Flying Circus, by H.J. nowarra and Kimbrough Brown, page 104, first sentence, quote:20 April 1918) "He was now flying DR.I 425/17; although he may have received it a week or so before, this is the first recorded flight on this triplane." End quote. I believe he acquired DR.I 425/17 on or about 12 April 1918, at which time it was painted all red with a white rudder.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San this is ridiculous, you selectively quote to suit your theory. Worse still you mis-quote to give your theories credence.

Your quote from Imrie's book (and even this is not a direct one):

"Therefore, some time after Richthofen's last victory on 18 Maqrch 1918 and doubtless intended for further use in an all-red scheme as Richthofen regular aircraft."

The real quote in context without modification.

It is not known when this aircraft, apparently 152/17 and completely over-painted red, was given to the museum by Kogenluft, but the machine's national insignia display and manner of painting indicate that they were contemporary and not applied retrospectively.
Therefore, some time after Richthofen's last victory on this machine on 18 March 1918, it was painted red and was doubtless intended for further use in its (not an) all-red scheme as Richthofen's regular aircraft. It may not have been a coincidence that the last combat report referring to this aeroplane with its partial red markings was only a few days before the beginning of the March Offensive. This gives some credence to the war correspondents' statements already mentioned, and the aircraft could have been completely over-painted red by the 21 March 1918. Furthermore, in the early 1930s Zeughaus officials categorically stated that the all-red aircraft in their charge was Richthofen's personal aircraft before it was replaced with the triplane in which he was killed.

Look at the other quotes from Imrie's book that I have bought to your attention which make it quite clear what his research indicates. He also states that in its final form with the thick ratio Balken Cross it was obvious that the aircraft had not been in use right up to his death. Do you really think that MvR had only one triplane at his disposal at LeChelle? These aircraft were only used for twenty hours between engine overhaul!

H.J. Nowarra made a very valuable contribution to historic research with his collecting of photos but I think its widely considered that his research was from an early period that has evolved since then and is now far more accurate.

I asked you two questions which you dodged once again. On what date was 152/17 sent to Berlin?

If you do not consider the translations of the MvR combat documents to be an accurate reflection of the original then you must have conducted your own translation to prove this, what is your translation on the colour schemes of his Dr.I aircraft?

So far it seems your research into when aircraft entered and were removed from service is entirely based on documents you believe are false.

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by RED BARON RETURNS

What are the chances of 425/17 and 477/17 being the same plane in the photo's ?
JP

There is no chance of them being the same plane but if you want to discover which of the two the photos show then I believe that to do this you need to weigh-up the evidence for and against.

The case for 477/17 is entirely based on Dan-San's theory that the photographer would have photographed the aircraft on which MvR had scored the previous 10 victories. This theory ignores the possibility of MvR's other aircraft being present and it ignores that fact that 477/17 was photographed at LeChelle if the identification is correct.

Before I move to the case for that all red triplane being 425/17 I would like readers to consider which aircraft they would find the more photogenic, a striking all red example or a partly red partly standard camouflage one with a history?

The case for 425/17 starts with MvR's combat reports and their description of the individual aircraft he flew.

The liklihood supported by conclusive evidence that 425/17 was delivered in a personalised state from the factory, in either CDL on its upper-surfaces or red and either way with normal stencilling and the case that this then presents that the aircraft would have been with MvR in plenty of time to have been at LeChelle.

Ed Ferco's observation of the military number 425/17 on the fuselage which he claimed is visible when viewing the negatives of one of the photos.

We know that at one stage 425/17 was painted in the same fashion - with the possible but unlikely exception of its rudder - as the aircraft in the LeChelle photos.

The photo purported to be of 477/17 by Alex Imrie and recently confirmed by Taz has the correct works number on its top wing. This photo originally came from a contemporary German photo album and has the caption " Manfred von Richthofen's triplane" (see von Richthofen's Flying Circus by Greg VanWyngarden page 56) and is painted in a similar style to its description in the combat reports. This aircraft was not all red and had its crosses modified to the Balken type whilst still fielding its normal streaky camouflage around its fuselage national insignia.

I'm sure there is more evidence for either case but this is my precise

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Dan-San, did I post the correct image or aircraft from the image that you wanted Taz to post?



Dave W.

[RAGIII]

Just a few thoughts from someone not as highly qualified as some of the others in this thread
1. Ed Ferko states roughly that the numbers under the wings and on the struts are too indistinct to be certain of any positive identification of 477/17//486/17.
2. Ed Ferko goes on to say in a caption of the all Red Bird that this has been positively Identified as 425/17.
3. GvW states as Ferko, that there is no proof of the identity of 477/17. He also believes that 425/17 is the all Red Tripe.
4. Alex Imrie of course has belief that both are positively Identified!
5. Lehmann believes that 477 is 486.

Here are my thoughts. all logical but not "Proven Facts"
1. Although many state that the identity of 477/486 is questionable, they still believe that the all RED triplane is 425/17. So identifying for certain that the bird in question is 486/17 may shift a little to DSA, it would not be conclusive as to eliminating 425/17 as the all Red triplane
2. Now my random thoughts/ questions; The panoramic view of Lechelle shows that almost all of jasta 6 has at least begun the changeover in cross styles yet only one Jasta 11 bird shows any sign of being converted? If you were going to begin the process wouldn't the JG1 commanders aircraft be the logical choice? Richthofen continued his association with the "Core" staffel(Jasta 11.) wouldn't as I stated 477/17 be the logical choice for the first aircraft to be converted? The photographer gave 2 DR1s CLOSE UP and personal shots! 425/17( disputed) and 477/17(disputed). Why those two and no others? My best guess is the Barons aircraft would draw the attention of the photographer. The shot of the disputed 477/17 is too distant in any copy I have seen( even those posted in this thread) to positively say it has a streaked wing. Let us remember that many of MvRs aircraft painted in the field indeed showed camo through thinly painted RED! To me much of the upper wing looks solid color, again in the distance! Finally, We know that MvR had at least 2 aircraft in this photo (Undisputed) 127/17 and 425/17 or 477/17. He had enough pull to warrant 2 more! I hope I made sense here, again JMHO,
RAGIII

[Langdon]

RAGIII,

1. Ed Ferko states roughly that the numbers under the wings and on the struts are too indistinct to be certain of any positive identification of 477/17//486/17.

I cannot say I have tried to do this as I do not have a first generation copy of the print but having said that I also believe Taz is unbiased in his approach (I'm not suggesting you are casting aspersions), as far as I understand he and Dan-San are good friends as so I believe if he's willing to say he positively identified the works number then that confirms Alex Imrie's work which I believe to be conservative. Taz scanned the image to a huge size of 500mb, this makes the job of identification much easier than using a magnifying glass. But I concede people make mistakes.

3. GvW states as Ferko, that there is no proof of the identity of 477/17. He also believes that 425/17 is the all Red Tripe.

I agree he gives no opinion either way but provides a precise of the various opinions. The caption on the photo claiming it was MvRs triplane is a strong piece of evidence in itself combined with the solid colour on the upper wing. I must say that apart from 425/17 & 477/17 I have not noticed any other aircraft in the LeChelle line-up with over-painted upper wings (prior to the cross changes).

5. Lehmann believes that 477 is 486.


I hadn't noted that, unfortunately he also has Hemer's as 425 so I think there was some confusion there. He shows the early shots of what I believe to be 425/17 as 477/17 but the later shot showing the aircraft adorned with Balkenkreuse as 425/17. The artwork of 425/17 has the same paintwork damage to the port side of the cockpit as the aircraft he's identified as 477/17 which is obviously the same aircraft.

1. Although many state that the identity of 477/486 is questionable, they still believe that the all RED triplane is 425/17. So identifying for certain that the bird in question is 486/17 may shift a little to DSA, it would not be conclusive as to eliminating 425/17 as the all Red triplane


Correct and I also agree with your point concerning the first aircraft to have its cross change applied, I actually wrote to Dave Watts about this yesterday but unfortunately it is not conclusive only logical.

To me much of the upper wing looks solid color, again in the distance! Finally, We know that MvR had at least 2 aircraft in this photo (Undisputed) 127/17 and 425/17 or 477/17.

477/17 has to be there as he's scoring victories on it. This statement will probably set Dan-San off on another "It's the only red triplane at LeChelle" but we know 425/17 is already one of MvR's personal aircraft as it is modified with the narrow bordered cross (let alone it not having standard upper-surface camouflage) and is painted all red, this (narrowing of the cross border) would not have been carried out from the original factory style after the move to LeChelle because we can see the photos of them converting the crosses to the latter style soon after their arrival there (Alex Imrie puts the change in crosses at late March, others suggest by the 6 April but even if 425/17 had its crosses modified to the narrow bordered type at LeChelle it still puts the aircraft there at the beginning).

This is another point that needs adding to the list above in favour of the aircraft being 425/17. It also disproves much of Dan-San's theory that 425/17 did not arrive until the 19 April or as he later conceeded the 12 April at the earliest. If this were true it would never have had its crosses modified to the outdated thin bordered variety as the rest of the Jasta had already been converted.

It's interesting stuff.
Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I would like your answer to these questions.
1.What was MvR's regular aircraft during their stay at LeChelle?
2. What were MvR's reserve aircraft?
3. You are very adamant that Dr.I 425/17 was at LeChelle Airfield, what proof do you have that it was there and when did it arrrive?
4. When was it painted all red?
5. What purpose did it serve, when it did not fly operationly. Can you give dates when it was flown?
Your answers, please.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Langdon:
I would like your answer to this question.
"What was MvR's regular aircraft during their stay at LeChelle?"
Your answer please.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan, although I am obviously not Langdon I think I know the answer. 477/17?
This was my point in my "Random" thoughts. The Barons current favorite aircraft surely would warrant the distinction of being the first to be converted to the straight armed crosses? As Langdon stated the photo of the disputed 477/17 was originally captioned as MvRs triplane. It was 1 of 2 aircraft singled out for more closeup photographs. I know "Logic" is not proof or fact! My major stumbling block and many others is still why the fuselage and wing crosses of 425/17 underwent all stages of modification with Red ,Black, and white if it wasn't MvRs until after the final date of requirement for these changes that MvR began flying this bird? You have stated in many threads that German discipline required strict following of orders. No need to go through the EXTRA steps of cross reduction if this aircraft wasn't painted before April 12th. if the aircraft was in an army park or out of service etc., surely the crosses would have been changed using Olive Brown as many others were. If with Jasta 11 before MvR took possesion, again the crosses would have been reduced with olive. The all Red bird fits ALL of the Requirements for matching the extant fabric samples of 425/17. The disputed 477/17 scheme fits the combat Reports that you question as being real. Is there room for error in my thoughts, absolutely! OTOH, your beliefs reference these tripes also have holes in the theory
We may NEVER know for sure
RAGIII

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

Its usually good form to answer questions outstanding prior to asking your own but I guess you have no answers, or explanations for your dodgy quote.

I believe I have answered all of these questions in my statements above but I will attempt to do so again.

477/17 was the aircraft in which he gained the most success and therefore his main aircraft due to whatever reason and as RAGIII states we can see it receiving its balken crosses first. 152/17 had been painted in the scheme that Jasta 11 switched to shortly after moving to LeChelle so it too was almost certainly there. We have photos of 425/17 at Lechelle as well as 127/17.

As I have stated previously my personal belief is that 425/17 arrived from the factory in a red upper scheme with blue underneath and covered with normal stencils, at some stage prior to LeChelle the entire aircraft was painted red with the exception of its narrow bordered national insignia (as per the photos).

As with you I cannot give an exact time or date when the aircraft arrived which was the point of asking you that same question concerning the departure of 152/17. What we do know is that if 425/17 arrived after the 12th of April as you suggest then it would never have been painted in a scheme that was outdated, not once but three times (also your suggestion is that it had nothing to do with MvR at this stage, and so it was not all-red which must have been strange given it has no upper-surface camouflage), a scheme that could only have been painted prior to the arrival at LeChelle or immediately after arrival in the first days (the latter is highly unlikely as we can see Jasta 6 had already converted their aircraft).

There is no proof that 425/17 was not flown operationally In fact Allan Toelle mentions that the lower fuselage has considerable soot and Castor oil staining its surface which is mixed with the paint producing a darker shade that gets lighter the higher you look on the port side fuselage fabric at the RCMI, this would be unlikely if the aircraft had only be flown a couple of times. Why he was unsuccessful on it we may never know. Having said that we have no idea how many flights MvR made in any of his operational aircraft. I think Udet (if not then another) mentions that they often flew five times a day, how many flights can you verify for 477/17 (feel free to answer the questions above first)?

I have held and inspected the control column, it has been modified for MvR, the grip was widened by cutting the tubes and inserting extra pieces, the blip switch was removed from its normal location and placed next to the right side grip handle, there are other modifications as well. I also inspected the foot step which has small brass plugs inserted in its ends that were nicely rounded, these were painted with black enamel when the rest of the step was painted. I believe this aircraft was built specifically for MvR so why wouldn't he have it with him?

Langdon

[Harri Huopainen]

Is it known for sure if the weights table was painted in 425/17 as usually? I understood that there is a fabric sample that shows the datum line, but is this part so big that it includes the area where the weights table is or at least should be?

I'm interested because it is said that normal stencilling was applied but Ray Rimell's color profile in Von Richthofen's flying circus doesn't show it. Also in Leaman's triplane book all markings visible under red paint have been compeletely ignored.

Btw, personally I believe that inverted v marking in red triplane is castor or some other oil soaked through fabric from fuselage structure tubes. There's plenty of close up shots of aircraft, where one can see this kind of weathering.
Also earlier in this thread it was mentioned that red triplane's surface looks very smooth in photographs. I think this supports the theory that all red triplane is 425 because I have understood that red paint is usually more or less transcluscent and streaked Fokker style camouflage would cause the paint job to look more scruffy.

Harri Huopainen