True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

Dave_Watts · 22 June 2006, 02:27 AM

Hi all,

More fodder for the grist mill.

For those not so familiar, (like myself), this will help to get a timeline on the movements of MvR leading up to the time of the photos taken of the all red Dr.I with rain drops still on the wings from a down pour at Lechelle airfield. That is why the prop is covered in the front photo.

I am quoting from Peter Kilduff's The Red Baron. I respect Peter's research greatly.

Page 182;

"...on...March 12th...Manfred and Lothar...and Steinhäuser went after the formation and shot down four.
Flying his new, mostly red, Fokker Dr.I 152/17 in combat for the first time,

Manfred von Richthofen claimed his 64th victory:..."

Page 184;

13 March, Lothar was shot down near Jasta 11's advance airfield at Awoingt.

"Unaware of Lothar's predicament, Manfred, in Fokker Dr.I 152/17, was firing away at his 65th victim."

Page 185;

"When no further news came in after a long time, he got into his crate and flew to the crash site in order to determine for himself more about the fate of his brother, whose injuries turned out to be relatively light, fortunately, despite the hard crash."

Page 186;

In reference to MvR recruiting

Ernst Udet from Jagdstaffel 37.

"MvR...drove through steady rain to Le Cateau on Friday 15 March. ...Udet accepted the...transfer."

"Gen von Hoeppner inspected JG I on 17 March, Richthofen reported a full state of readiness for the offensive."

"Under clear blue skies...on 18 March,...Kommandeur von Richthofen led 30 aircraft from Jastas 6, 10, and 11..." Richthofen claimed his 66th victim.

Page 187;

"The front was quiet the next two days. JG I's equipment was moved quietly at night from Avesnes le Sec and Lieu St Amand and placed in hangar tents at the advance airfield at Awoingt. On the evening of the 20th all aircraft were flown to the new field and quickly housed in the hangars."

"At 0445 the following day [21 March], German heavy artillery...opened fire along a 70km battle line. The German spring offensive had begun."

"In addition to JG I, ...Jastas 5 and 46 were also under [MvR's] command for this operation."

Page 188;

"[21 March] Richthofen's great air armada undertook 52 sorties that day, but claimed only the two balloons as victories."

"Despite bad weather over the next two days,...there was considerable flying activity... Indeed, on the 23rd JG I flew 80 sorties...but gained nothing for their effort."

"On the 24th, 105 sorties and involvement in fifteen air fights produced a loss and a victory. The day's sole victory - Manfred von Richthofen's 67th - was scored... Richthofen, looking like the apparition of red death in his first combat in the all-red Fokker Dr.I 477/17, ..."

"Once again, on 25 March, Manfred von Richthofen achieved JG I's only success and his 68th victory:..."

"[26 March] Ltn.d.Res Ernst Udet reported for duty at Awoingt... It was Udet's first flight in a Fokker Dr.I,... He hung back with the others as Richthofen dived down in his blood-red triplane to seal his 69th victory."

Later on that same sortie he shot down his 70th victory.

Page 189;

"By 1800 that evening [26 March] the airfield [Lechelle] was occupied by German forces..."

"The date 27 March 1918 marks one of the most successful days in JG I's history: 118 sorties, 39 inconclusive air combats and, as detailed in Chapter 1, thirteen successful combats, including Manfred von Richthofen's 71st, 72nd, and 73rd victories."

"The next morning [28 March] Ltn Udet led Jasta 11... ...he scored his 22nd victory that day."

"Richthofen led the afternoon flight and, as reported, shot down his 74th enemy aircraft:..."

Page 193;

75th victory

"Rittm von Richthofen scored the first of JG I's five victories of 2 April."

"He [MvR] was not satisfied until an advance airfield was prepared at Harbonnieres, about 8km from the battlefront."

JG I moves to Harbonnieres April 3rd.

Of interest Kilduff writes on page 196;

"Manfred von Richthofen shot down an enemy aircraft on 6 April, and two more the following day. As Geschwader-Kommandeur he was entitled to his pick of aircraft, and as this time he had three triplanes at his disposal. This arrangement ensured that at least one aircraft would be mechanically ready, fully armed and fuelled whenever he needed a 'fresh' triplane. As noted in chapter 1, on 27 March he achieved three victories with two different aircraft, Fokker Dr.Is 127/17 and 477/17."

Lastly on page 199;

"Bad weather on 16, 17, 18, and 19 April kept JG I on the ground most of the time, but clear skies on the 20th offered Manfred von Richthofen the opportunity to lead his men into battle. Flying his all-red Fokker Dr.I 425/17, he shot down two Sopwith Camels within a few minutes of each other."

Well, that's it! Lots of typing, I hope it is of help to get a perspective of the timeline.

Looks like Kilduff is saying 477/17 is our all red bird at Lechelle. We need to lock down the werk number from the top wing of what has been called 477/17. Taz will return!

Best,
Dave W.

Dan_San_Abbott · 22 June 2006, 11:02 AM

Dave Watts:
Thank you Dave, Peter Kilduff is in complete concord with time-line and equipment.
Very blue skies,
Dan

Dan_San_Abbott · 22 June 2006, 12:18 PM

Langdon:
I believe you will find the identification source for Fok.DR.I 152/17 is Mr.Peter Endsleigh Castle's illustration in the "Fokker Dr.I Profile" with the data coming from Peter L.Gray and Egon Krueger, published about 1961. The article is by Jack Bruce. There are two photos in the Profile credited to Alex Imrie, Fok.F.I 103/17 and Jasta 26 line-up, however he is not listed in the credits for any source of information. The bulk of the photos are from Egon Krueger and Peter Bowers. Those listed in the credits are, Peter L.Gray, Egon Krueger and A.R. Weyl. The collected Profiles published in book form has a copyright date of 1966. Alex Imrie's "Pictorial History of the German Air Service" pubished in 1971 has no photos of any of MvR's triplanes, it has Jasta 11?,12, 15, 26 and 27.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

Langdon · 23 June 2006, 12:29 AM

Dave Watts,

Peter Kilduff's book "Richthofen" is certainly a fine and thoroughly researched work. It has been sometime since I read it, does he give a source for his description of the paint scheme for 477/17? If it is from Richthofen's combat reports then I suppose its game over for my theory but the problem is that many books are cross referenced based on the current likely opinion and as we go through the many excellent works that are available we keep seeing differing opinions, all from highly regarded authors trying their best to preserve history.

The dates you have provided above give us a great insight into the unfolding events of the time, the first thing that draws attention was the brief period that MvR flew 152/17, I had always thought this aircraft was an old faithful, kind of like the Albatros he handed on to Lothar. Having studied the events you quote above it becomes evident, if Dan-San and others are correct, that he only used this aircraft for 6 days, and recorded three victories on it! It seems very odd that such a new, relatively unused aircraft would be removed from service only to be placed in a museum right at a time when men and materials must have been in short supply with the opening offensive. To me it seems likely that this would only occur after the death of MvR as was the case with Immelman and Boelcke's aircraft. And to place his then current fighter in a museum would almost certainly be seen as tempting fate.

As with others I have been re-reading many books lately. Last night I came across another scenario for this aircraft, Ed Ferko states that 152/17, along with other Jasta 11 triplanes, were sent to Jasta 5 where it was flown by

Josef Mai between the 15th and 17th of May, possibly scoring an additional victory, does anyone have further information on this? I cannot imagine a pilot in another Jasta flying in MvR's colours.

The next thing that got my attention was the activity around the time of the move to LeChelle, Richthofen had been flying 477/17 as his main mount for a couple of days prior to the move and then right through to the 7th of April, from his victory list we can see he was busy claiming 10 victories in the 12 day period after the move to LeChelle.

According to some, the photos below show 477/17 at a date shortly after its move to LeChelle, most believe this was taken in late March or very early April and the thing that strikes me is that this aircraft is not currently in service (Also looks to have possible repaired damage to the bottom and top right wings). Dave mentions that For those not so familiar, (like myself), this will help to get a timeline on the movements of MvR leading up to the time of the photos taken of the all red Dr.I with rain drops still on the wings from a down pour at Lechelle airfield. That is why the prop is covered in the front photo.
but I do not agree that the prop is covered due to the rain, if the rain were a problem then the aircraft could be placed back in the empty hanger - it was said that one of the good things about LeChelle was the excellent hangers that provided hangerage for all of the aircraft. If you look at all of the other aircraft you do not see any with their props covered. Not only is the propeller covered but the engine is sealed up in the same packing in which they come from the factory, an engine that is in use is covered with Castor oil which prevents corrosion. To place this bag around the engine would almost certainly necessitate the removal of the propeller and cowling certainly not something that would be done on an aircraft that was required for daily service.

A very clean, oil free aircraft.

I firmly believe that proof either way can only be provided through an enlargement of the works number in the photo of the aircraft believed to be 477/17, or from the original combat reports. Dan-San one question please, do you have any of these reports from victories obtained in 477/17?

Kilduff states that MvR had three triplanes at his disposal, 127/17 and 477/17 so which is the third 152/17 or 425/17? If he's correct, one or the other has to be present at LeChelle.

Langdon

RAGIII · 23 June 2006, 01:12 AM

Really good stuff coming up in this thread. As langdon implied I think each author has done their best to interpret the info at hand at the time of writing!
I too thought 152/17 was used more heavily, but again aren't we looking at aircraft mentioned in reports when victories were scored? The condition of the covering of the prop and engine are mentioned in Imries book, and as Langdon has stated Imrie believes this indicates an aircraft out of service for whatever reason!Doesn't seem to make much sense if 477/17 is the current mount and the all Red aircraft IS 477/17! Just my 02 cents worth,
RAGIII

Langdon · 23 June 2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Langdon:
I believe you will find the identification source for Fok.DR.I 152/17 is Mr.Peter Endsleigh Castle's illustration in the "Fokker Dr.I Profile" with the data coming from Peter L.Gray and Egon Krueger, published about 1961. The article is by Jack Bruce. There are two photos in the Profile credited to Alex Imrie, Fok.F.I 103/17 and Jasta 26 line-up, however he is not listed in the credits for any source of information. The bulk of the photos are from Egon Krueger and Peter Bowers. Those listed in the credits are, Peter L.Gray, Egon Krueger and A.R. Weyl. The collected Profiles published in book form has a copyright date of 1966. Alex Imrie's "Pictorial History of the German Air Service" pubished in 1971 has no photos of any of MvR's triplanes, it has Jasta 11?,12, 15, 26 and 27.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

Thanks for that, I was sure the photo #153 on page 106 of Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane" was first identified as Dr.I 152/17 by Imrie. Also the sketchy information from the Zeughaus concerning the acquisition of the aircraft.

Langdon

Dave_Watts · 23 June 2006, 02:38 AM

Hi all,

Langdon,

1.

"On the 24th, 105 sorties and involvement in fifteen air fights produced a loss and a victory. The day's sole victory - Manfred von Richthofen's 67th - was scored... Richthofen, looking like the apparition of red death in his first combat in the all-red Fokker Dr.I 477/17, ..."

Kilduff cites, not for the coloring of 477/17, but for the combat report that followed;

"Note #37 Public Record Office, op.cit., p.38; Ibid., p.74; S.E.5a C1054, Lt. J.P. McCone (Mia)."

2.

"[26 March] Ltn.d.Res Ernst Udet reported for duty at Awoingt... It was Udet's first flight in a Fokker Dr.I,... He hung back with the others as Richthofen dived down in his blood-red triplane to seal his 69th victory."

Kilduff cites, not for this paragraph, but for an above paragraph which is from Udet's "diary", so as this paragraph follows the above, it may be from the same source.

"Note #39 Udet, op.cit., p.67"

Kilduff cites many sources throughout his book, almost every other paragraph, with good original source material, such as Public Records, RFC Communiques, Bodenschatz, and many other pilots works.

No smoking gun found here, although if this is Udet's direct observation, then he would have made it the afternoon before they went to Lechelle, and that would be good testimony.

I'll have to look up my Udet's Mein Fliegerleben, (if that's the book Kilduff is talking about).

Best,
Dave W.

Dan_San_Abbott · 23 June 2006, 08:22 PM

Langdon:
Egon Krueger was the Alex Imrie of the 50s through the 70s. he has not gotten the credit he deserves. Peter Grosz collaborated with him when they did the Pfalz book in 1964. It was a real "WOW" then.
What Dave has come up with here regarding DR.I 477/17 really clarifies the issue. I have the "Combat Reports" for the Dr,I 477/17. What is it you wish?
The physical description of the machine is incorrect. It has it with thr red upper surface of the top wing, red engine hood, struts, wheel covers and empennage. It was these reports that suddenly appeared at the Public Records Office that everyone hung their hat on as being true translations without provendence. With what Dave has come up with has destroyed any validity these reports had, and just substantiates the doubts I had about them. All the dates in the reports are in the month/day/ year form.
Fok.Dr.I 152/17.
66th victory, 18 March 1918, 11:15 am, Camel B5243. Molain-Vaux Rd.

Fok.DR.I 477/17.
67th victory, 24 March 1918, 2:45 pm S.E.5 above Combles.
68th " 25 March 1918, 3.55 p.m.,Sopwith 1, above street Bapaume-Albert in the surroundings of Contalmaison, Englishman, beginner.
69th victory, 26 March 1918, Sopwith 1, 4:45 p.m., Wood south of Contal- maison. Englishman.
70th victory, 26 March 1918, 5 p.m., R.E.old type, 2 kilometers northeast Albert. Englishman.

Fok.DR.I 127/17. red upper deck,red hood, red wheels, red tail.
71st victory, 27 March 1918, 9 a.m., Sopwith 1, Ancre, 1 kilometer north of Aveluy, north of Albert.

Fok.DR.I 477/17.
72cd victory, 27 March 1918, 4.30 p.m., Bristol Fighter 2, 2 kilometers west of Foucaucourt. Englishman.
73rd victory, 27 March 1918, 4.35p.m., Bristol Fighter 2, 1 kilometer north of Chuignolles, south of Bray-sur-Somme. Englishman.

Fok.DR.I 127/17.
74th victory, 28 March 1918, 12.20 p.m.,Armstrong 2, Forest near Mericourt. Englishman.

Fok.DR.I 477/17.
75th victory, 2 April 1918, 12.30 p.m., R.E.2, Hill 104,north-east of Moreuil. Englishman.

Fok.DR.I 127/17.
76th victory, 6 April 1918, 3.45 p.m. Sopwith Camel, north-east of Villers-Bretonneux, near east edge of Bois de Hamel. Englishman.

Fok.DR.I 477/17.
77th victory, 7 April 1918, 11.30 a.m. S.E.5, near Hangard. Englishman.
78th victory, 7 April 1918, 12.5 p.m., Spad, 500 meters east of Hill 104 north of Villers-Bretonneux.

Fok.DR.I 425/17.
79th victory, 20 April 1918, 6.40 p.m., Sopwith Camel, south west of Bois du Hamel.
80 th victory, 20 April 1918, 6.43 p.m., Sopwith Camel, North-east of Villers-Bretonneux.
From "Jagd in Flanern Himmel" Jage Nr.1 moved from Avenes-le-Sec to Awoingt on 20 March 1918. From Awoingt to Lechelle in the afternoon of 26 March 1918. With operations beginning the morning of 27 March.
While Alex Imrie had given the date of the photos as 26 March 1918, I think it was probably 27 March 1918. I have had the opportunity to see the complete set of the photos taken at Lechelle Airfield in the Peter Grosz Archiv.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

CWatson · 23 June 2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langdon

Dave W.
The dates you have provided above give us a great insight into the unfolding events of the time, the first thing that draws attention was the brief period that MvR flew 152/17, I had always thought this aircraft was an old faithful, kind of like the Albatros he handed on to Lothar. Having studied the events you quote above it becomes evident, if Dan-San and others are correct, that he only used this aircraft for 6 days, and recorded three victories on it!

I had always thought 152/17 was one of his main mounts also. It sure looks war weary in the photos to have been used only for a short time. As others have stated maybe he simply had not scored in it before. It was delivered in Nov or Dec 1917 and I do not think MvR would have taken over a used machine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langdon

As with others I have been re-reading many books lately. Last night I came across another scenario for this aircraft, Ed Ferko states that 152/17, along with other Jasta 11 triplanes, were sent to Jasta 5 where it was flown by

Josef Mai between the 15th and 17th of May, possibly scoring an additional victory, does anyone have further information on this? I cannot imagine a pilot in another Jasta flying in MvR's colours.

Laserlloyd on this site mentioned Mai had scored in 152/17 on a earlier thread. This is the only other source I have heard state this. I to doubt someone else would use MvR's colors, maybe Mai modified the paint scheme ? 152/17 sure looks very thicky overpainted in it's final paint job,maybe in a effort to make it red again for the museum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langdon

Kilduff states that MvR had three triplanes at his disposal, 127/17 and 477/17 so which is the third 152/17 or 425/17? If he's correct, one or the other has to be present at LeChelle.

As RagIII has mentioned above,because of MVR position it would be logical for his plane to be repainted with the new style crosses first correct? In the photo of the LeChelle lineup with the swastika marked plane,the 8th plane in the line appears to be a overall dark color even the rudder and it appears to have had the cross change done already. Maybe this is the third red plane?

CWatson

CWatson · 23 June 2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

I have had the opportunity to see the complete set of the photos taken at Lechelle Airfield in the Peter Grosz Archiv.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan San,

Thanks for posting that info on the combat reports even though I know you have concern about their validity. Langdon has mentioned he has some reports that are not translated into English, I wonder if they inclued the same information?

You mentioned seeing the whole set of Lechelle photos,was there any "Holy Grail" shots of any of the aircraft discussed on this thread in there that have never been published? Some of the best shots of Jasta 11's planes published seem to be taken from that series.

This whole thread has got me so curious I think I will post on the UTD forums and see if I can find a history major there who wants to earn a few extra bucks for text books

.

CWatson