True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I hope I can sort this out.
1. I have no problem with the description of the coloring of Fok.DR.I 152/17.
It was painted just like the photos show at the front on 18 March 1918 in the manner as described in the MvR Combat report, on page 171 of 'Jagd in Flandern Himmel", " Fok.Dr.I152: rotes oberes Tragdeck rote haub, rote Laufräder u. roter schwanz. "Red upper wing, red hood, red wheels, and red tail". This is how it was painted (plus struts)the last time he flew Fok.Dr.I 152/17.
In regard to the combat reports which I had outlined what troubled me about them.
1. Format, The English translated reports did not comform to the German format used by MvR. Example MvR's report for 18 March. The translation lacks the following in the heading, Jagdgeschwader 1., The date was:
18.3.18, he has March 18, 1918. The time style is incorrect, he has, 11.15 a.m.,
The text in this one he follows fairly well. He has added at the bottom, Pursuit Squadron 1.
No.155 L.
To. C.O.Air Forces 2.
Requesting to have 66th victory acknowledged by highest command.
Frhr. v.R.
2. In most cases, there are differences in the translations, comparing them to the translations by Floyd Gibbons in his "Red Knight of Germany". At first I thought these translations came from Floyd Gibbons, they differ. Gibbons follows the Combat Report format precisely, but uses the American date style.
3. Provenience. I e-mailed the Public Records Office requesting information about the source of the MvR translated combat reports. Several days later I received a e-mail from the PRO stating they had no information about the origin of these combat reports. I suspect some American (date style) did these translations and gave them to the PRO. The question is where are the original combat reports, or from what documents did he do these translations and when were they given to the PRO?
At Avenes le Sec he only had Fok.Dr.I 152/17. At Awoingt MvR acquired Dr.I477/17. At Lechelle he added Dr.I 127/17 as his reserve machine to back up Dr.I 477/17, his regular machine.
When he flew Dr.I 127/17 the first time photos show the machine undecorated, see photo, page 61 in Paul Leaman's "The Fokker Triplane" but
by 27 March 1918, the top of the upper wing, engine hood, wheels, struts and empennage were painted red, 71st vic.
After the move to Cappy on 12 April 1918, there is no further mention of Dr.I 127/17 or Dr.I 477/17. It could be that Peter Kilduff is saying MvR now has three machines, Dr.I 127/17, Dr.I 477/17 and Dr.I 425/17. What is odd we don't know were 127/17 and 477/17 went. In May when Jasta 6 and Jasta 11were re-equipped with the Fok.D.VII, some went to Jasta 4 and some to Jasta 5.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
Let's forget all of this stuff and start over. What is your theory? And please substantiate or document all your claims.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I refer you to Cross & Cockade Journal, Vol.18, No.3 Autumn 1977. "The Victories of Ltn. Josef Mai, Jasta 5." by Dr. Gustav Bock. The 12th victory scored on 15 May 1918 was with Fok.Dr.I 139/17. and on 20 May 1918, Mai scored his 14th victory on Fok.DR.I 554/17. On 2 June 1918, Mai scored his 13th victory on Fok.DR.I 592/17. No mention of Fok.Dr.I 152/17. I believe Ed Ferko is misinformed here. He did not indicate any source to support his assertion.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

In reply to thread #161.

We know that there are significant gaps in the information we have on the various aircraft flown by MvR, probably we will never be able to sort out when he received aircraft and when they were finished with or what ultimately happened to them. I do not believe we can draw any substantial conclusions from the gaps in knowledge, i.e. when MvR first flew 425/17 when he retired or first flew 152/17; we know for instance that 152/17 should have been received around mid December 1917 but why do we hear nothing about it until the 12th March when he scores his first victory in it.

I do not believe you can discount the translated combat records just because they are not perfect copies of the originals due to the format and minor omissions. Unfortunately I do not know for sure but I suspect that the details we know and quote concerning Richthofen's victories come from these translated copies, if they really are suspect then we may as well stop debating this as all records concerning aircraft flown to achieve certain victories are also suspect, I really do not believe that to be the case or at least I certainly hope it isn't. To miss out on translating information like MvRs unit really could be explained by the translator thinking that that information was obvious. I know its disappointing when the job is done poorly but unfortunately it often is, let's hope we can find the originals and confirm or even re-translate the copies.

Peter Kilduff published the two untranslated copies above in his work "The Illustrated Red Baron" first published in 1999. The source given for the second of the two reports above is the PRO (possibly they reside with the translated copies?), he does not mention a source for the first report. Dan-San I know you have placed a lot of store in the quotes given by Dave Watts above, from Kilduff's other work "Richthofen" published in 1993 (which I have criticised today even though I believe it to be otherwise a very fine book) but if you look at the first published dates you will see "The Illustrated Red Baron" is the latter work, he has corrected his former mistake in that work and has identified the streaky camouflaged triplane with the red upper wing at LeChelle as 477/17 and he has what I, and many others, believe to be 425/17 identified in front of hanger 4 at LeChelle.

Concerning your other post, it would take me a couple of hours to go through my position again, precisely. I have not really altered my position throughout this debate, I have only added extra points as I have discovered or considered them. Would you mind going over my old posts to consider the theory. Throughout my posts I have stated my theory clearly and have included the information I believe to be fact with sources and made it perfectly clear when I am speculating and what I base the speculation on; a couple of pages back I provided a list of evidence. My only alteration is that I believe that other Dr.Is used by MvR may have been altered to bring them into line with the all-red scheme of 425/17 at LeChelle or later, prior to LeChelle I believe 425/17 to be the only all-red triplane and all other MvR Dr.I aircraft to be similar in the partial application of their red colour.

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Langdon:
I refer you to Cross & Cockade Journal, Vol.18, No.3 Autumn 1977. "The Victories of Ltn. Josef Mai, Jasta 5." by Dr. Gustav Bock. The 12th victory scored on 15 May 1918 was with Fok.Dr.I 139/17. and on 20 May 1918, Mai scored his 14th victory on Fok.DR.I 554/17. On 2 June 1918, Mai scored his 13th victory on Fok.DR.I 592/17. No mention of Fok.Dr.I 152/17. I believe Ed Ferko is misinformed here. He did not indicate any source to support his assertion.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

I think you are most probably correct. As I noted elsewhere above I find it hard to believe that another pilot in a different Jasta would fly in Richthofen's colours.

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

The photos were taken on two separate days, the 26th and 27th or 27th and 28th of March 1918. The photos on the first day is in bright sunlight with strong shadow and on the second day overcast sky and weak shadows.
From Alex Imrie's book, "The Fokker Triplane" photos 92, 94 and 95 were taken on the first day. With DR.I 477/17 in front of the fourth Besseneau Hangar, Jasta 6 in line-up in front of hangars 1 and 2 and Jasta 11 in front of hangars 3 and 4. There were more than these six photos. There were photographs of Jasta 6 and 11 from behind the line-up and in front of the line-up of both Jasta 6 and 11. On the second day DR.I 477/17 was in the line-up next to Ltn. Richard Wenzel's DR.I 588/17 with the checkered leading edge, photos 98, 99 and 100. Photos 98,99 and 100 were taken on the second day.
Dan-San

Dan,

Just curious about the "second day photos.
1. Imrie dates these photos as early April. He states that Richard Wenzl did not arrive at Jasta 11 until April 2nd. Is he incorrect about this date?
2. All aircraft in the second group of photos show changed crosses on fuselage and wings. Were these marking changes accomplished this completely overnight?
3. Those pesky wing leading edge stacking pads. Were they replaced overnight? Perhaps a change of wings overnight?
Again just curious, thanks,
RAGIII

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
It is obvious that several have used these reports in writing their books or articles. I did not know of there existence until last year or the year before when Jumpinjan sent me copies of what he received from the PRO. I wrote my article in "Over the Front, Vol.3, No.3, Autumn 1988." I used other sources in my article. I relied on MvR's letters, and Nowarra's Richthofen and Floyd Gibbons's "The Red Knight of Germany." He has a good number of the combat reports in it. Looking at the publication dates of "Richthofen" by.A.E. Ferko is 1995 and "The Fokker Triplane" by Alex Imrie is 1992. Both of these books refer to the MvR combat reports. I wonder when they first heard of them? I have mixed feelings about them. I don't use them as reference because of my doubts, nor do I selectively take information from them in anything that I write or quote. I have my convictions and I adhere to them.
MvR returned from leave on 16 February 1918. I believe whe he returned to operations he selected Fok.DR.I 152/17 and had it painted as had been described. From 16 February to 17 March 1918, there is nothing mentioned in "Jagd in Flandern Himmel"about MvR participating or leading any patrols until 18 March 1918. He had done some flying during this period when he used Fok.DR.I 161/17 to fly to Boistrancourt to visit Jasta 5. On 17 March 1918, he used Fok.DR.I 525/17 to visit Jasta 5 in the preparations for Operation Michael. I think these respectively were in Jasta 11 and Jasta 6 markings. (ref. "The Fokker Triplane", page 79.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RAGIII:
In Alex Imrie's book, "GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS JUNE 1917-1918", pages 12 and 13, Panorama photo of Lechelle Airfield. In the caption on page 13 he dates the photo on 26 March 1918.
I rechecked my translation in "Jagd in Flandern Himmel"and it states operations were flown and victories scored in the afternoon of March 26th. So I now have no doubts about that date. The shadows indicate the photos were taken in the mid afternoon, 2 or 3 o'clock.
Ltn.Richard Wenzl arrived at Jasta 11 from Jasta 31 on 27 March 1918. (See The Jasta Pilots, page 296.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

If you doubt the validity of the combat reports, and at least one of the untranslated examples posted above is held by the PRO and should be acceptable to you, then what do you base MvR's aircraft use on? Do his letters state what aircraft he was flying to achieve his various victories? The other authors nodoubt used the combat reports so you cannot quote from them either.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I believe I answered your question in my post #167, however, I'll restate my primary sources. If you wish to review all the sources, I refer you to Over The Front, Vol.3, No 3," Manfred Frieherr von Richthofen His Aeroplanes and Victories" page 246.
Rick Duiven, Jasta 2 and Jasta 11 war diaries.(unpublished)
Heinz Nowarra, Von Richthofen and the Flying Circus.
Floyd Gibbons, The Red Knight of Germany.
Alex Imrie, German Fighter Units 1914-May 1917.
Alex imrie, German Fight Units June 1917-1918.
Karl Bodenschatz, Jagd in Flandern Himmel.
Heinz Nowarra and Kimbrough Brown list aircraft type and number begining with Alb.D.II 491/16. The serial numbers are not listed for his early Alb.D.III machines. I believe that Nowarra and Floyd Gibbons had access to some of MvR original German combat reports.
Floyd Gibbons had MvR's combat reports from victory 17 to 68. Those reports did not identify his machine or its color. In some cases he referred to his "red Albatros" in the narrative.
The above were my basic sources and those in red the most important sources. There were a total of 17 sources listed under References.
Blue skies,
Dan-San