True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

Langdon · 26 June 2006, 08:52 PM

Dan-San,

Well without seeing the sources for the material above it is hard to coment. We know of at least two original reports held by the PRO and they describe the aircraft accurately. I will find out if they have more.

Anyway there is no dispute over the dates victories were achieved. But can you tell me, on what evidence do you base your statement concerning the all-red triplanes identity at LeChelle?

Langdon

RED BARON RETURNS · 26 June 2006, 10:01 PM

Dan-san,Langdon,cwatson,
Thanks for giving me a hand with the info and this thread kinda took a life of it's own.
Hope you guys like it.
JP

RED BARON RETURNS · 26 June 2006, 10:11 PM

Dan-san,Langdon,cwatson,
Thanks for giving me a hand with the info and this thread kinda took a life of it's own.
JP

SORRY FOR HITTING IT TWICE.

Dave_Watts · 27 June 2006, 01:48 AM

Hi all,

I missed this passage from Kilduff's The Red Baron concerning our subject. It's in the first Chapter; the whole chapter pertains exclusively to the date of March 27th, 1918. How's that for being pertinent to our discussion?!

Page 13;

"On that Wednesday, 27 March 1918,..." "...German air group commander Rittmeister

Manfred von Richthofen noted the hour; 0745."

"...Bongartz, leader of Jagdstaffel 36...watched for his cue. Bongartz recognized der rote Kampfflieger, Richthofen, by the red colouring of the top wing and most of the fuselage of his Fokker triplane. When the red hawk began his descent, Bongartz led his pilots in a dive..."

"The first Jagdeschwader I pilot to inflict tangible damage was Jasta's 6's...Franz Hemer in a dirty-green triplane."

Page 14;

Just before 0900 MvR shoots down his 7st victory.

Page 15;

"Rittm von Richthofen...headed...back to...Lechelle."

They took over Lechelle on 26 of March.

Page 16;

"Geschwader-Kommandeur von Richthofen led the second mission. The triplane he had used in the morning, Fokker Dr.I 127/17, was replaced for the afternoon patrol by Dr.I 477/17, an aircraft which bore his brick-red colour on all upper surfaces and was all the more conspicuous from most of the other triplanes, which were painted in a standard brown and green streaked finish with a few individual adronments barely visible from a distance. The whole point was for everyone - friend and foe - to be able to recognize Germany's now legendary air combat leader."

This discription of 477/17 by Kilduff seems to contradict the earlier posting I made where he wrote;

Page 188;

"On the 24th, 105 sorties and involvement in fifteen air fights produced a loss and a victory. The day's sole victory - Manfred von Richthofen's 67th - was scored... Richthofen, looking like the apparition of red death in his first combat in the all-red Fokker Dr.I 477/17, ..."

and

"[26 March] Ltn.d.Res

Ernst Udet reported for duty at Awoingt... It was Udet's first flight in a Fokker Dr.I,... He hung back with the others as Richthofen dived down in his blood-red triplane to seal his 69th victory."

I wonder if Kilduff's statements from Chapter 1 are what he believed things to be, and the latter quotes from Chapter 12 are from his sources quoted?

Definitely a contradiction, or maybe not!

I have to say, if someone says "all-red" it may not really mean red all-over. As Kilduff points out, most planes were mostly in standard finish, if Manfred's 477/17 was all-red on the top surfaces then one would be inclined to state it was all-red, instead of stating it was mostly red.

I'm leaning towards all-red on upper surfaces. More to discuss.

Dan-San,

I can't help but be drawn back to the combat reports. I understand that you are saying the quoted material from the original and valid set of combat reports utilized by Floyd Gibbons in writing The Red Knight of Germany is valid. It appears there are or have been in existence a set of German MvR combat reports of which Langdon has posted the only two reports he has found. Do these two reports parallel the information quoted by Gibbons, or better said, do they contradict them?

To reiterate, I understand there may be extra information in the original reports Langdon posted, but does it contradict Gibbons' selected passages? It may be better to utilize a German edition of Der Rote Kampfflieger, to match them word by word.

Just an idea.

Best,
Dave W.

Dan_San_Abbott · 27 June 2006, 12:30 PM

DaveWatts:
The two reports the Langdon has are in Jagd in Flandern Himmel. I do have any conflict with either report in Jagd in Flandern Himmel. page 171 for 18 March 1918, 66th victory, and page 179 for 20 April 1918, 80th victory and acknowledgement from Kogenluft.
The English translations from PRO of these and the other copies is what I have a problem with.
Peter Kilduff. He was influenced by the change of opinions of A.E.Ferko and Alex Imrie that stemed from an article in the Windsock by Ray Rimell. Prior to that every one believed that the all red Fok.DR.I at Lechelle was 477/17. The problem is there is no way that you can get 425/17 to Lechelle from available records. To paraphase the song, Wishing won't make it so. gerntlemen, We are going around in circles.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

RAGIII · 27 June 2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

RAGIII:
In Alex Imrie's book, "GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS JUNE 1917-1918", pages 12 and 13, Panorama photo of Lechelle Airfield. In the caption on page 13 he dates the photo on 26 March 1918.
I rechecked my translation in "Jagd in Flandern Himmel"and it states operations were flown and victories scored in the afternoon of March 26th. So I now have no doubts about that date. The shadows indicate the photos were taken in the mid afternoon, 2 or 3 o'clock.
Ltn.Richard Wenzl arrived at Jasta 11 from Jasta 31 on 27 March 1918. (See The Jasta Pilots, page 296.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan, I have no disagreement with the 26th March being the date of the first series of LeChelle photos.
I have confirmed the March 27th transfer date of Wenzl in at least one other source(in addition to the jasta pilots). My question is does this date necessarily coincide with "Arrival" at Jasta 11?
That being said, even if Wenzl arrived on the 27th I find it highly doubtful he had an aircraft personalized for him on the same day of arrival! (Wenzl used the B&W Bands in his previous assignment).This in addition to the totally completed cross changes mentioned earlier makes me believe there had to be more than a 1 day separation in the 2 series of LeChelle photos. I EVEN believe the all RED triplane in the second series may be 477/17, just not that it is the same all red triplane as the first series of photos.( Especially if you insist the lineup photos with changed markings happened the next day). The cross change had begun on only one aircraft in the Jasta 11 portion of the lineup/ panoramic view,477/17(disputed). It seems logical that this being MvRs Regular aircraft it would be painted overall red at the same time.(after the photos) After a few days to a week(Early April) I can see this being in the lineup with Wenzls tripe. As you say no evidence puts 425/17 at Lechelle other than Ed Ferkos claim of being able to read the serial # in the negative. But I also believe STRONG evidence shows 477/17 to be painted the same as 127/17 and 152/17 on the day of the LeChelle photos ( Panoramic View day). JMHO,
RAGIII

Langdon · 28 June 2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

DaveWatts:
The two reports the Langdon has are in Jagd in Flandern Himmel. I do have any conflict with either report in Jagd in Flandern Himmel. page 171 for 18 March 1918, 66th victory, and page 179 for 20 April 1918, 80th victory and acknowledgement from Kogenluft.
The English translations from PRO of these and the other copies is what I have a problem with.
Peter Kilduff. He was influenced by the change of opinions of A.E.Ferko and Alex Imrie that stemed from an article in the Windsock by Ray Rimell. Prior to that every one believed that the all red Fok.DR.I at Lechelle was 477/17. The problem is there is no way that you can get 425/17 to Lechelle from available records. To paraphase the song, Wishing won't make it so. gerntlemen, We are going around in circles.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

Where do you place 425/17 whilst MvR is at LeChelle then if you think he wouldn't have this all-red aircraft with him, and please don't insult our intelligence by saying that there is no evidence that it was all red prior to the 20th of April.

I am certain you are the wishful thinker in this debate as we have the photo of 477/17 painted in the scheme MvR describes. I have seen you dismiss evidence before by claiming it to be fake to suit your needs. You were very keen to promote Peter Kilduff when it suited you, his research was beyond doubt until you found out that he had correctly reviewed it.

Dan_San_Abbott · 28 June 2006, 04:28 PM

Langdon:
You believe that Dr.I 425/17 was at Lechelle, that is your opinion. I don't believe Dr.I 425/17 was at Lechelle, My opinion is based on the fact that in the records (Nowarra) there is no record of Dr.425/17 until 20 April 1918.
For example, "Why did MvR use Dr.I 161/17 in March and Dr.I 525/17 on 17 March 1918 to visit Jasta 5 instead of Dr.I 152 /17 which was his primary aircraft? When did he get Dr.I 425/17? When did MvR start using 425/17? Are all the photographs at LeChelle of the all red Triplane, 425/17? Where is 477/17? Was it photographed at Lechelle? If It was his regular aircraft why is it not in the flight line photos?
If you have a record or a document that establishes otherwise, produce it. I don't want to hear Imries, Ferko, I know their positions, they are both stating opinions. Produce evidence to support your position. Evidence, Langdon. Evidence.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan_San_Abbott · 28 June 2006, 05:14 PM

RAGIII:
I had thought the photographer would have two days takeing pictures. Which is what he did, however they were not consecutive days. Operation for the most had been curtailed because of rain and storms. My guessis 2 April 1918, It was overcast in the morning. (Jagd in Flandern Himmel. The photos on the second day show an overcast, weak shadows. It certainly would permit time for Ltn.Wenzel to get his machine painted.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

RAGIII · 28 June 2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Langdon:
You believe that Dr.I 425/17 was at Lechelle, that is your opinion. I don't believe Dr.I 425/17 was at Lechelle, My opinion is based on the fact that in the records (Nowarra) there is no record of Dr.425/17 until 20 April 1918.
For example, "Why did MvR use Dr.I 161/17 in March and Dr.I 525/17 on 17 March 1918 to visit Jasta 5 instead of Dr.I 152 /17 which was his primary aircraft? When did he get Dr.I 425/17? When did MvR start using 425/17? Are all the photographs at LeChelle of the all red Triplane, 425/17? Where is 477/17? Was it photographed at Lechelle? If It was his regular aircraft why is it not in the flight line photos?
If you have a record or a document that establishes otherwise, produce it. I don't want to hear Imries, Ferko, I know their positions, they are both stating opinions. Produce evidence to support your position. Evidence, Langdon. Evidence.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

DSA, I guess this brings us back to the following:
1. No records of Dr1 425/17 prior to April 20th ( Per Combat reports claiming victories.) Use of any aircraft otherwise is unknown but probable. By the way, if we follow Nowarra closely then F1 102/17, and all Jasta 11 aircraft are also all or mostly RED!
2.Why did MvR use aircraft from Jasta 6, 11, etc. not assigned to him? Because he was the Geschwader Commander and used aircraft at need?
3. IIRC 425/17 was accepted on Jan. 8th 1918. I would guess MvR received the aircraft sometime after that date, and WAY BEFORE APRIL 20th!
The Cross changes on extant Fabric prove this.(FACT) The only FACT I know of in this whole discussion!
4. There are reports( you chose to ignore or challenge) that report Dr1 477/17 as having an Upper wing in Red, as well as the rear fuselage, wheel covers, struts and cowling.
5.No one has ever said 477/17 was not at Lechelle. Just that they disagree as to which aircraft is 477/17.If as many others feel the streaked aircraft is 477/17 then it was obviously SINGLED out for up close and personal photos!
5. Obviously no records or any other proof( again other than those who have stated they read the numbers on the relative aircraft) ie. Ferko(425/17) and Imrie( 477/17).
6. You ask for proof not based on Ferko, Imrie, etc. Isn't your "Evidence"Based on others research? Be it Nowarra, Kilduff, etc.? DO you have any Original evidence that Identify positively that the ALL RED aircraft at LeChelle is 477/17? Not "Opinion" but based on positive ID of the Werke Number, serial number etc.?
This debate as I have said previously can not end unless outside sources can verify Numbers that the rest of the mortal race seem unable to discern :-)
RAGIII