True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Taz]

CW- I sent the image to Cicogne for sharpening and the raw image to Dave Watts and Langdon. I do not have a web site, but maybe Dave or Cicogne will take pity on us and post it. A 50kb version is kind of worthless. Need to find a free web host, I guess. The image is courtesy of Peter Grosz, who has a first generation print.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RAGIII:
I believe you are a little premature in stating that Fok.DR.I 477/17 is out f the picture for the all red machine in front of the Hangar.
Also I don't believe our problems are over with the "MvR Combat Reports. Their are two versions under the PRO Ref, AIR 1 /686 / 21 /13 / 2250. See my post of 4 July 2006, 7:38 PM. There are some descreptancies here that are not resolved. I think they somehow have two files mixed up, that are simular and not identical.
The one that Peter Kilduff has is different than mine and yet have the same file number???
Fok.DR.I 477/17. I am using Alex Imrie's book "THE FOKKER TRIPLANES" for reference purposes. I will use TFTand page number. Also I will use OVER THE FRONT, Vol. 3, No.3, Autumn 1988" MANFRED FREIHERR VON RICHTHOFEN HIS AEROPLANES AND VICTORIES." by Dan-San Abbott, for his aeroplanes / victories while at Lechelle Airfield. OTF page number.
I. First cross change directive, Idflieg Nr.41390 fl.3. 17 March 1918.
II. Amendment to the cross change directive, 4077/3.18. Flz. Zak.2.
1. MvR received Fok.DR.I 477/17 after Jage Nr.1 moved to Awoingt Airfield on 20 March 1918, the Forward Landing Field in preparation for
Operation Michael. OTF, page 256.
2. TFT, page 79. Quote, "Contemporary war correspondence have stated that Richthofen's reserve aircraft had red wings and that from the beginning of the March Offensive his regular machine was over-painted completely red."3. On page 81 Alex Imrie reiterates the statement on page 79, with, quote; "As already mentioned, from the beginning of March Offensive, Richthofen had his aeroplane painted completely red. It is knownthat he had this done previously in 1917when his Alb.D V had also been completely over-painted red."End quote.
3. On 24 March 1918, MvR scored his first and second victories flying Fok.DR.I 477/17. victory number 67th, a S.E.5. (S.E.5a). OTF, page 256. TFT,page 79.
4. On 25 March 1918, MvR achieved his 68th victory, Sopwith 1 (Camel). OTF, page 256 and TFT, page 79.
5. On 26 March 1918, Jage NR.1 moved in the afternoon to Lechelle Airfield and flew operations in the afternoon, OTF, page 256.
6. On 26 March 1918, MvR scored two victories, his 69th and 70th victories
while flying Fok.DR.I 477/17. The 69th a sopwith 1 (Camel) and trhe 70th, a R.E.8. OFT, page 256, TFT, page 79.
7. On 27 March 1918, MvR scored his 71st victory, in the morning at 9:00 am while flying his reserve machine Fok.DR.I 127/17 for its first victory. OFT, page 256. I had this victory with DR.I 477/17, I have subsequently corrected my error from TFT,page 79.
8. In the afternoon of 27 March 1819, at 4:30pm MvR shot down his 72 cd enemy machine, Bristol Fighter. OTF. page 256 and TFT, page 79.
9. In the afternoon , of 27 March 1918, at 4:35pm MvR shot down his third for the day, his 73rd victory, another Bristol Fighter. OTF, page 256 and TFT, page 79.
10. At 12:30 noon on 28 March 1918, MvR scored his 74th victory, the second while flying his reserve machine Fok.DR.I 127/17.
11. Just after mid-day at 12:30pm, MvR shot down his 75th victim, an R.E.8 while flying his reserve machine, Fok.Dr.I 127/17, the third with this machine.
OTF, page 256, TFT page 79.
12. On 6 April 1918, in mid afternoon at 3:45pm, MvR shot down a Sopwith Camel for his 76th victory. OTF, page 256 and TFT, page 79.
13. On 7 April 1918, MvR scored a double, his 77th and 78th victories while flying Fok.DR.I 477/17.
III. Cross change amendment, to Idflieg. Nr. 41390 fl. 3. 17 March 1918 and amendment 4077/3.18 Flz.Zak.2. Idflieg directive Nr.4252/3.18 BA Nr.8320/v. Z.A.K. 10 April 1918.
14. During the period from 20 March to 11 April 1918, Fok.DR.I 477/17 was MvR's "regular" machine. During this period MvR gained 9 victories with this machine. And so it was painted all red as described by the war correspondences, see item 2. above. TFT,page 79 and 81.
15. On 12 April 1918, Jage Nr.1 moved to Cappy Airfield.
16. On 20 April 1918, MvR scored two victories in the late afternoon, both Sopwith Camels for his 79th and 80th victories while flying his all red Fok.DR.I 425/17 with a white rudder, with balken crosses in their final form as directied by Idflieg directive Nr.4252/3.18 BA Nr.8320/v.Z.A.K. 10 April 1918.
Dates, times and places, airfield locations an d movements are supported by data from "Jagd in Flandern Himmel" by Karl Bodenschatz.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Taz]

CW- Missed part of your question. The two photos could have been taken days apart since one shows Balkenkreuz work just beginning and the other with it mostly complete. No way of knowing which aircraft is which in the background of the photo copy Dan-San sent me based on another, earlier photo. The aircraft were continuously moved around on aerodromes depending on circumstances. The pretty line-ups we see would have made the aircraft very vulnerable to air attack (aka Pearl Harbor, except there was no declared war on Dec 7th) and were most likely temporary for official photographs or inspection tours. Most of the overhead photos I have seen that were not posed show aircraft relatively well dispersed to prevent one pass by a Camel or other aircraft from taking out multiple aircraft. These airfields were very close to the front (as little as 5 miles) and were even susceptible to artillery shelling. JG II lost ~25 aircraft to an artillery attack on the night of 12-13 April, 1918 (from memory) and had to withdraw to a safer location. It is surprising more of this did not take place.

So I think extrapolating aircraft positions from an earlier photo to a later photo is unrealistic. Dave posted good copies of the photos in question.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz;
I disagree, you can position the Dr.I 477/486/17 by the location of the aircraft in the line-up. Your argument is weak. Same tactic as Langdon.
Dismiss it, and it is not a problem.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I thought you were "sick of this crap" or was that just a tactic? Your combat list above is impressive, can you quote fully from the document and give us the colour scheme information as well please? If you are returning to your old weak tactic of dismissing the combat reports then please do not quote which victories were scored using certain a certain aircraft, as that information must also be suspect in your mind. I think you will have to do better if you wish to discredit these reports, the substitution of the word "that" for "were" or whatever it was is hardly noteworthy, we see bigger mistakes in most of your postings.

Landgon

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Taz

CW- Missed part of your question. The two photos could have been taken days apart since one shows Balkenkreuz work just beginning and the other with it mostly complete. No way of knowing which aircraft is which in the background of the photo copy Dan-San sent me based on another, earlier photo.

So I think extrapolating aircraft positions from an earlier photo to a later photo is unrealistic. Dave posted good copies of the photos in question.

Taz I do not know how far apart the pictures were taken but it may have been just the next day or simply even later in the same day. I will use Leaman's Triplane book as reference. Page 155, top picture on page has the famous line up, the second to last plane in line up already has the crosses changed, the same appears in Ferko's Richthofen page 65,which is clearer and less cropped and shows at least one more if not two Triplanes that had the crosses changed.

Now the second picture(155) from the top on the right hand side of the page shows a spotter with binoculars on a tripod, the other half of this panaramic picture is on page 154 second picture from the bottom, part of the tripod is visible, yes? So we have line up of Jasta 6 in the forground with some having the rudder and fuselage crosses changed, the still have white cross fields on the upper wings with early crosses. I do not know how long it would take to change the crosses, the fuselage and rudder crosses to be exact most of the upper wing crosses still appear to be unchanged in all the aircraft but I would not call the cross changes almost complete,I can not see any plane that has iron crosses in the earlier picture from the top of page 155 appear in the "later" panoramic view with later crosses.Simply looks like they started changing crosses on Jast 6 first unless there is something I am missing, which is not unheard off.

What am I getting at? Since this is a thread of MvR's triplanes and you matched the werke number on to 477/17 and Dan San thinks the plane in the backround of the panoramic shot is the same plane even though he does not agree on the werke number. If these pictures were taken only a day it would not be to invalide to compair the positions of the aircraft ,the plane mentioned in the panoramic by Dan San does appears to have it's prop and ailerons in the exact same angles as the the plane you IDed as 477/17 and if it was it would be interesting to note the other details,such as the plane has white upper cross fields.


CWatson

[Taz]

CW- Worth taking another look. Have good prints of the photos in question.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

I finally dug out my Der Rote Kampfflieger. I may have found something albeit I'm sure ambiguous, but still worthy of posting. I have difficulty reading this, so help is appreciated with attention to the "red" passages.

If this doesn't apply, I'll delete it.







Here is what I make out to be a congratulations from the Kaiser to MvR on his Fifteeth victory. I wanted to show an official document of the period.



Best,
Dave W.

[Sreiko]

I have seen ling time ago images of the wrck of Richtofen plane surounded by Australians. There could be noted streaks in camouflage. As I know this red paint was threated as "nich deckend" by German personel and this mean non covering.

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

RAGIII:
I believe you are a little premature in stating that Fok.DR.I 477/17 is out f the picture for the all red machine in front of the Hangar.
Also I don't believe our problems are over with the "MvR Combat Reports. Their are two versions under the PRO Ref, AIR 1 /686 / 21 /13 / 2250. See my post of 4 July 2006, 7:38 PM. Dan-San

Dan, No offense but I think ALL of these issues as to victories/ combat claims/ aircraft flown were addressed earlier in this thread. No one but you has questioned that the Combat reports are accurate, the dates of which you have once again posted. Yes MvR scored more victories in 477/17 during the period you quote, indicating this may have been his "Regular Mount". You continue to question the reports yourself,citing grammatical differences which contain NO significant differences in content! The PRO has validated why we have 2 versions containing Anglicized and Americanized English. IIRC one of these reports called out colors for 477/17 being red upper wing & upper fuselage, tail, wheel covers, and cowling.(Or something very similar). Also, the quotes from Imrie were discussed at length and have been edited and commented on previously. As an aside, I will again mention that Imrie believes that 152/17 was painted all Red at this time for use as his regular aircraft. ( Not agreeing or disagreeing) just pointing this out. As for your train of logic using the combat reports of victories combined with the " Contemporary War Correspondent" I can only refer to a much more modern time "Desert Storm" and the vast number of mistaken IDs on aircraft types, let alone colors and more specific details by the press. Even Imrie admits the correspondents reference was "simplified"! As far as I can tell the only evidence you have presented to ID the all red tripe at Lechelle as 477/17 is the number of victories MvR scored on this aircraft indicating that it was his "Regular" Dr1 combined with the Contemporary War Correspondents description of how the regular mount was painted.NO werke numbers, serial numbers or other hard evidence has ever been presented. All speculation based on a logic train that sounds good but IMHO is flawed by the FACTS.
1. Ferko identified the serial number as 425/17 on a negative of the all RED bird at Lechelle
2. 425/17 extant fabric samples show all cross changes and were completed in RED & Black, NO Fokker Olive Brown. ( This would preclude the aircraft having its crosses changed while being held in reserve at an army depot before being sent to the front. It HAD to be painted RED before the cross changes. An issue you seem to dodge continuously).
3. Imrie & Taz have Identified the streaked aircraft at Lechelle by the werke # under the wing as being 477/17. Other ( Maybe ALL OTHER except Leamann) serious researchers have accepted this, including Kilduff!
4. The disputed 477/17 photo was labeled in a contemporary photo as MvRs Triplane.
5. This is conjecture! The photographer singled out only TWO triplanes for up close and personal attention, the all red bird and the disputed streaked bird. WHY these two? The DR1 most consider to be 477/17 is the FIRST Jasta 11 aircraft to show evidence of cross changes. Makes sense to me that it would be a DR1 flown by MvR.
6. Finally, even if it were proven beyond ANY reasonable doubt that the streaked aircraft was 486/17, that does not by converse logic "Prove the All Red Triplane to be 477/17".
RAGIII