True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Dave_Watts]

Taz....

You da man!

He is absolutely correct. It is the white paint flaking off. I swear you can even make out the faint white cross on the red? field, (that's what's giving it the dark "hole" effect).

Damn, don't say you know until you know. I didn't know! Pulling out what little hair I have left!

Best,
Dave W.

[acer]

For those, who are interested:

The aircraft in front of #233 is
Fok.Dr.I 521/17, Werknummer 2189

acer

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by acer

For those, who are interested:

The aircraft in front of #233 is
Fok.Dr.I 521/17, Werknummer 2189

acer

Twice now you have posted this statement with EXTREME conviction! Having finally seen numbers myself I can't say I can rule your interpretation out. I still would like to know your source. Is it the posted werke number? Is it from other sources? Again it is the amount of certainty in your statement that piques my curiosity.
RAGIII

[acer]

RAGIII-

Nobody would be able to read the Werknummer from these scans posted here.

My information are from the private collection of photographs and diaries of the man who flew this aircraft in combat.

acer

[Taz]

acer- Care to share this info and some of the images? 2189 definitely looks like a possibility and we would love to see better images. New Dr.I photos always interest me. Who was the pilot? The only association with this airplane I know is with Oblt von Greim, but this Dr.I was passed down to Jasta 34b from another unit, most likely JG I.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by acer

RAGIII-

Nobody would be able to read the Werknummer from these scans posted here.

My information are from the private collection of photographs and diaries of the man who flew this aircraft in combat.

acer

As others have said we are interested in any new info on Dr1s and their pilots. Is there any chance the diary and the pictures will be published? There is more than one author on this board who would be happy for any new material.


Thanks,
CWatson

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
I would like you to read my thread #222 on page 23. After you read it, if you still believe itis DR.I 425/17. Provide a detailed rationale with specific reference on how you got there.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

I just wanted to comment I'm quite dissappointed that a German member of the Aerodrome Forum didn't step up and give just a couple of translated passages from my #228 posting of MvR's book. As well with posting #183 and #188. I think Dan-San was the only one that gave any effort of a translation, and it was brief and then with my last posting, no one replied.

I think it's important to see how the pilots, as well as MvR himself, were describing the "color" of his plane. "All red" it appears was used, (I still don't have detailed descriptions of each victory claim with color details, [if available]), as describing more than one of his mounts. I believe this "all red" description was not what we think of with 425/17 being all red except the rudder.

Are there no Germans reading this thread?

I can even translate some of it. The title of the chapter, "Der Rote Farbe", translates to "The Red Color". I can make out he is talking about himself using red, then the Jasta using red and several descriptions of each pilots colors. The French called him the "Little Red".

Anyhow, even though it's "old" German I'm sure a German can make out much of it today.

Best,
Dave W.

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Taz:
I would like you to read my thread #222 on page 23. After you read it, if you still believe itis DR.I 425/17. Provide a detailed rationale with specific reference on how you got there.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Last time you asked for this Dan-San you chose to ignor it, what would be the point in Taz doing so?

Having said that I believe the W/N in the photo above to be too indistinct to be conclusive, I doubt acer will come up with the evidence, I may be totally incorrect but I think he goes by other names on this forum (Franzkait, Dark Angel, Richthofen). The first two numerals are certainly 21 the last two being the problem, I agree with taz that the third one is different to the 1. When we take into account the red upper wing and the caption from the album I think the evidence is still strongly in favour of 477/17.

[Gregvan]

Hi Dave,

The section from "Der rote Kampfflieger" which you posted on #228 entitled "Die rote Farbe" was written by Lothar and not Manfred, and has been translated into English more than once. I have quoted sections from this little article in a couple of my books. I'm fairly sure Lothar was writing this post-war, as an addendum to Manfred' original manuscript. He was never a careful writer, and was remembering things from at least a year prior to writing it. He was describing the original red Albatros D.III flown by Manfred and the other red Albatrosse eventually flown by Jasta 11. He was writing in very general terms only, for the casual general reader. Here's how Peter Kilduff translated it in his 1969 edition of "The Red Baron".:

"It became known all over that the English had put a price on my brother's head. Every flier over there knew him, for at the time he alone flew a red airplane. For that reason we wanted to paint every airplane in our squadron, and we pleaded with my brother not to be so conspicuous. The request was granted, for through our many victories we had shown ourselves worthy of the color. The color red signified a certain arrogance. Everyone knew that. It attracted attention. Hence, one had to accomplish something. We looked with pride on our red birds. My brother's crate was glaring red. The rest of us each had his own special mark painted in other colors. In the air one cannot see another flier's face, so we chose these colors as recognition insignia. For example, Schäfer had the elevator, rudder and rear part of the fuselage in black, Allmenröder had the same in white, Wolff had green, and I had yellow. As a yellow dragooneer, that was the appointed color for me. Each had a different mark. In the air the entire machine appeared red to those on the ground as well as to the enemy fliers, for only a small part of the machine was painted a second color. Those who took part in the defensive battle of Arras saw much of the red birds and their work.

"Why did Rittmeister von Richthofen paint his crate red? The French labeled this as a childish affectation in one newspaper article. The real reason lies elsewhere. When Manfred began to gain his first successes with Jagdstaffel Boelcke, he was annoyed because he felt he was much too visible to his enemies in aerial combat and that they saw him much too early. He tried using a variety of colors to make himself invisible. At first he emphasized the earth colors. From above one would not detect those colors if there was no movement, which of course is impossible in a plane. To his sorrow, Manfred found that no one color was useful in the air. There is no camouflage for the flier with which he can make himself invisible. Then, in order to at least be recognized as the leader by his comrades in the air, he chose the color bright red. Later the red machine also became known to the English as 'Le petit rouge' and the other names that accompanied it. At one time it was maintained that a 'Joan of Arc' or a woman of similar stature, sat in it. But soon both friend and enemy knew who sat in the red machine. An unaccountable enthusiasm was kindled in our troops at the Front, that was not shared by the enemy. It was similar to waving a red cloth before a bull to rashly provoke him. But with 'Le petit rouge' that parallel ceases, for as soon as the English saw the red machine they made themselves scarce. Thus, in the battle of Arras the red machine had only to approach the Fron in order to send the English fleeing to their own lines."

Now, much of that should be taken with a grain of salt, especially the part about MvR trying to camouflage the plane he flew in Jasta Boelcke - it would already have borne the factory camouflage. You are correct in stating that when most German airmen described a 'red' or even 'all-red' aircraft, in most cases this applied to the fuselage, tail, and undercarriage only. As far as we know, MvR's Albatros D.III flown in the Battle of Arras had the wings in their original factory camouflage (which included a reddish-brown color). I believe that one of the later Albatros D.V's that MvR flew was indeed painted all-red, i.e. all of the wing surfaces, etc. and that this was D.V D.1177/17.

The sections you posted from Udet's "Mein Fliegerleben" have also been translated into English in the two different English editions of Udet's book. I believe that his casual description of Richthofen's "red Triplane" should not be taken as too much of a careful or complete description.

Greg VanWyngarden