True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Taz]

All- I have a sneaking suspicion I know who Acer is. If it is who I think it is, the aircraft in question would indeed be 521/17. It is definitely not Franzkait, who I have communicated with in the past. I am happy with the conclusion that the ID of that particular Dr.I is just a missing nail in the relatively complete coffin of the idea there is a widely photographed all-red 477/17.

Dan-San:
1) Ferko ID of SN on the guarded red triplane on original photograph/negative.
2) Same inverted V on the Lechelle aircraft.
3) MvR description of 477/17 as same basic color scheme as 127/17.
4) Fabric samples showing all cross changes accomplished and no olive streaking on upper surfaces of 425/17.
5) All-red paint scheme on 152/17 done in the field with interim markings.

Rest of facts and analyses irrelevant (but interesting) compared to these primary sources.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Taz

All- I have a sneaking suspicion I know who Acer is. If it is who I think it is, the aircraft in question would indeed be 521/17. It is definitely not Franzkait, who I have communicated with in the past. I am happy with the conclusion that the ID of that particular Dr.I is just a missing nail in the relatively complete coffin of the idea there is a widely photographed all-red 477/17.

Taz how does this plane being 521/17, which you seem to suspect is true, put a nail in any coffin?? If it is confirmed this plane is not 477/17 it puts doubt on the ID of the "V" plane again.

Originally Posted by Taz

1) Ferko ID of SN on the guarded red triplane on original photograph/negative.

To be honist I thought it was quoted he could read the werke number off the rudder on the picture with strait crosses and white rudder with guards around it. If this is so it leads to interesting conflicts of facts if it is the "werke" number he read. This was in a letter found after his death and he could not be questioned on, like if the numbers were clear or bloches in the picture we were trying to make heads or tails on?

The "V" plane with early crosses has a rudder overpainted red, was then overpainted white when the strait crosses were added. Would the black lettering show through the two colors? Langdon has a mate who has a piece of the rudder material and I believe Langdon has stated there was no red under the white, the reason being it may have been recovered.

I doubt the werke number would have been visible through multi coats of different color paints and I do not believe the werke number would have been added to a recovered rudder.

Before anybody burns me at a stake for questioning what was quoted from one of Ferko's letters, a man who's work I greatly admire, I want to point something out. All this time we have been discussing the werke number off the wing of the plane thought to be 477/17 and it was accepted three numbers had been confirmed by experts before only the last digit being in doubt, now after Acer post it being 521/17 Taz feels it is possible even though he thought he read 477/17's werke number himself? I thought the orginial picture of this plane was found in a German airman's album and was captioned "One of MvR's planes"?

If this plane may be 521/17 and flown by Von Greim, is there a picture showing Greim's plane from the front port quarter that we can compair the upper wing leading edge and streaking with?

If this is so then the only thing that could prove which is which is unpublished photos showing clear werke or ID numbers or a copy of one of MvR's combat reports written in his own hand discribing his plane in detail.

No wonder this debate has gone on for decades.

CWatson

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Thanks Greg for that lengthy posting. I know how long it takes to key all that text in.

Also thanks for your statements regarding the "all red" verbiage. I agree that a pilot writing in a diary or for that matter, a reporter writing for a newspaper and describing the Baron's plane as "all red" didn't necessarily mean all red from tip to tail. Inversely, now if an observer had recorded "partial red" I think we can hang our flying helmet on that, and apply that to mean literally the plane was painted partially red.

This is the "safe" road.

Best,
Dave W.

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by CWatson

If this plane may be 521/17 and flown by Von Greim, is there a picture showing Greim's plane from the front port quarter that we can compair the upper wing leading edge and streaking with?

If this is so then the only thing that could prove which is which is unpublished photos showing clear werke or ID numbers or a copy of one of MvR's combat reports written in his own hand discribing his plane in detail.

No wonder this debate has gone on for decades.

CWatson

CW, to the best of my knowledge only one picture of this aircraft exists. It is a right side almost 3/4 rear view with an awful distortion near the front, One thing of interest is the added access panel(round) near the aie intake. It is round as seen in Jasta 11, but mounted above the center line and is rather large. This varies from the norm in Jasta 11.
RAGIII

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by acer

RAGIII-

Nobody would be able to read the Werknummer from these scans posted here.

My information are from the private collection of photographs and diaries of the man who flew this aircraft in combat.

acer

I hope you take no offense at what I am about to say but I must get this out!
Who is "the Man Who Flew this Aircraft"? IIRC, other than assignment to JG1(most likely Jasta 11) no other author has Identified the pilot prior to its use by Greim.Surely divulging the pilots name would'nt betray any vast secret or ruin an upcoming book or article? Like at least one other poster, I seem to get a feel of evasive answers making me suspicious of your posts. Sorry just how I read things. A little further explanation would help to clear things up. any new info as others have stated is always appreciated and welcome( even if it proves a previous belief false)
RAGIII

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by RAGIII

CW, to the best of my knowledge only one picture of this aircraft exists. It is a right side almost 3/4 rear view with an awful distortion near the front,

RAGIII,

You are probably correct but I had thought I had seen a second photo on this forum and someone was discussing the color of the wing and caban struts being red because it had been a Jasta 11 plane. I did a couple searches but nothing showed up.

CWatson

[Taz]

CW- Read the post, I said the aircraft being 521/17 is a missing nail in the coffin. Ferko read the serial number through the red paint, not the WN. Parts of the serial number still survive today (the /17, I believe) and are still visible through the red paint. When I looked at the WN, I was looking at two possibilities, 2112 and 2103. I fouled up by not considering other WNs. If Acer is who I think he is, he probably has other photos of the aircraft and the diary of the pilot who flew it. If him, his collection rivals that of Imrie and Grosz. There are many unpublished photos of Dr.Is; I have a few myself and others have many more. New photos do pop up in books as Greg and others dig them up or are allowed to use them.

Rudder color is an inconsistency for sure and the rudder could have been recovered or replaced. I do not know if 2009 was on 425/17's rudder on 21 April. If recovered or replaced, it most likely would not have been. Rudders were very vulnerable to damage and Ross Walton had to straighten his out in 2003 at Dayton after it was bent by an untrained ground crew member. In 1918, they would have just changed the rudder if a spare were available. There are photos of Oblt Greim and Dr.Is in the Windsock Datafile Special and in C&C USA Vol 16 # 4 (1975) and OTF Vol 5 No 4 (1990). Unfortunately he flew 146/17 and 521/17 and possibly other Dr.Is, so no way of knowing which is in the photos.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Taz]

CW- Read the post, I said the aircraft being 521/17 is a missing nail in the coffin. Ferko read the serial number through the red paint, not the WN. Parts of the serial number still survive today (the /17, I believe) and are still visible through the red paint. At one point, 425/17 was CDL on top with factory stencils, then was painted red at the factory or unit. When I looked at the WN, I was looking at two possibilities, 2112 and 2103. I fouled up by not considering other WNs rather than just distinuishing between the two.

If Acer is who I think he is, he probably has other photos of the aircraft and the diary of the pilot who flew it. If him, his collection rivals that of Imrie and Grosz. There are many unpublished photos of Dr.Is; I have a few myself and others have many more. New photos do pop up in books as Greg and others dig them up or are allowed to use them.

Rudder color is an inconsistency for sure and the rudder would have to have been recovered or replaced. I do not know if 2009 was on 425/17's rudder on 21 April. If recovered or replaced, it most likely would not have been. Rudders were very vulnerable to damage and Ross Walton had to straighten his out in 2003 at Dayton after it was bent by an untrained ground handler. In 1918, they would have just changed the rudder if a spare were available.

There are photos of Oblt Greim and Jasta 34b Dr.Is in the Fokker Dr.I Windsock Datafile Special and in C&C USA Vol 16 # 4 (1975) and OTF Vol 5 # 4 (1990). Unfortunately he flew 146/17 and 521/17 and possibly other Dr.Is, so no way of knowing which Dr.I is in the photos. There is also a color profile of the aircraft in the Datafile Special which shows that particular aircraft's top wing in standard streaked finish with dark reduction of the cross fields.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

I hesitated to get involved in this thread, as my thoughts concerning the photos in question have pretty much been stated in my books. However, here's just a few additions:

There are at least two photos of Greim's Jasta 34b Dr.I in his two red band markings, and Alex Imrie believes that both of them show 521/17 (Works Number 2189). Greim's flight log still exists (though I have never seen a copy ), and this is presumably where Acer's information about the history of 521/17 comes from. According to Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane", Greim flew 521/17 during June 1918, "alternating with his Albatros D. Va and Fokker D.VII, but on 27 June during a combat with a Bristol Fighter, his triplane's engine cowling flew off and damaged the top wing leading edge and broke the port bottom interplane strut. Greim was able to land safely, but there is no indication that he flew 521/17 again. On 16 July 1918 the triplane was destroyed during a British air attack on Foucaucourt."

There is no record (to my limited knowledge) of 521/17 having been at Jasta 11, but we do know that the Triplanes received by Jasta 34b were cast-off aircraft from JG I - so it is certainly possible that 521/17 had been with Jasta 11.

The better-known photo of Greim resting his arms on the fuselage of Dr.I 521/17 is seen on page 95 of Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane" - this shows the machine from the right (starboard) side, but as has been stated, much of the nose and the two lower right wings are obscured by a blemish. This aircraft had a circular access hole panel mounted on the forward fuselage just aft of the cowling; it is mounted just above the center line of the fuselage, in the position sometimes seen on Jasta 36 DR.Is. Of course, this access panel might well have been mounted at Jasta 11, as that unit used similar circular access panels mounted just below the center thrust line (see Dr.I 147/17 of Jasta 11, captured on 24 March 1918, flown by Keseling of Jasta 10). I have a print of the Greim photo but it is currently in Ray Rimell's hands, so I cannot post it. This photo is also seen on page 25 of Rimell's "Fokker Dr.I Special" and on page 87 of Osprey's Fokker Dr I Aces of World War I.

The other (lesser-known) photo of Greim's Dr.I (a 3/4 starboard front view) can be seen on page 11 of "Windsock International", Volume 19 No. 5, Sept/Oct 2003, and came from Alex Imrie. The original is, I believe, pasted into Greim's flight log, and he labeled the photo as "Mein Dreidecker". He even colored over the two fuselage stripes, cowling and interplane struts in red ink on the original photo, to show the location of the red markings! He did this on at least one photo of his D.VII as well.

As Taz says, there is another photo published in C & C (US) Vol. 16 No. 4, 1975, page 299, which shows a general airfield view at Foucaucourt on 31 May 1918. This shows what may have been Greim's 521/17, but it is a small distant view and doesn't really reveal anything.

Comparing the two good Greim photos (which almost certainly show 521/17) to the disputed Lechelle photo of '477/17', it does not seem to me that the upper surface of the Greim Dr.I is painted a solid dark color, as seen on the Lechelle Dr.I (but, admittedly, neither photo is very clear on that aspect). The Dr.I in the Lechelle photo distinctly shows those black (?) lines painted on the leading edge of the center and bottom wings which one sees on some Dr.Is - these lines separated the upper surface camouflage from the underside blue. I have stared long at the photo of the Greim Dr.I (521/17, presumably) in the 'Windsock' issue and, honestly, I cannot see them on that Dr.I. The starboard wheel cover of the Greim Dr.I in "Windsock" was not painted a dark color (and Greim did not color it over in red ink!) but the wheel cover on the port wheel of the Lechelle Dr.I certainly seems to be painted red. Of course, wheels can be replaced (as can the upper wing) and we're talking different wheels here.

Just some observations. Get those references and check them out for yourself.

Whew!

Greg VanWyngarden

[Taz]

Greg- Thanks. Was just working with a couple of books I have at work and did not realize 521/17 and v Greim had been relatively well documented. I thought Acer meant he had photos and the diary/log of the Jasta 11 pilot who flew 521/17. If not, I would be interested in how he recognized the aircraft from the photo in question.

Never mind about 477/17, your views are published and I agree with them. Your comment on the black painted leading edges is very interesting because I thought I had seen leading edge tapes on several Dr.I photos. We even had a discussion about leading edge tapes on the Forum before. You think they were just masked black-painted lines? I would have thought the leading edge seams would have made a pretty good painting guide, unless, of course, the black lines were applied after streaking to clean up the results. Always happy to learn something new about Dr.Is.

Taz
Terry Phillips