True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Originally Posted by Ross_Moorhouse

http://www.amug.org/~copperst/details_28.html for 1/28th Decals from CopperState.

Hey Ross,
Thanks for the info on the decals.I ordered the Werner Voss 103/17 so this will be the 2nd plastic Fokker Dr.1 i'll be doing.
My father in-law gave me a 1/28 fokker Dr.1 made by HobbyCraft are the decals for that kit good ?
They look brand new but sometimes they can crack-up while there in the water.
I have seen some Monagram kits back in the 1990's do that.
This kit is just like the revell one i'm doing which is ok but it's not the best Fokker Dr.1 kit too much custom work to do on them.i
Need to find a real good Kit either in 1/28 or 1/32.
JP

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
my reference to the rudder was if the engine exhaust produced "soot" that would adhere the the fuselage and darken the vermillion to a dark red approaching maroon, then the white on the rudder would have been darken to a mid grey. It was not, How did the "soot" get on the upper surface of the top wing? it can't. Finally after a rotary engine airplane shuts down, it is not covered with exhaust soot, it is covered with castor oil or in the case of the Germans, it covered with Voltol. You clean uo the bottom and sides of the of the fuselage and inner part of the lower wings and stabilizer and the exhaust residue is gone. You won't find it on the upper wing cross fields. The vermillion was darken with carbon black, and poorly mixed, with some particle in suspension sitting on the surface like lumps of coal when viewed with a microscope.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
my reference to the rudder was if the engine exhaust produced "soot" that would adhere the the fuselage and darken the vermillion to a dark red approaching maroon, then the white on the rudder would have been darken to a mid grey. It was not, How did the "soot" get on the upper surface of the top wing? it can't. Finally after a rotary engine airplane shuts down, it is not covered with exhaust soot, it is covered with castor oil or in the case of the Germans, it covered with Voltol. You clean uo the bottom and sides of the of the fuselage and inner part of the lower wings and stabilizer and the exhaust residue is gone. You won't find it on the upper wing cross fields. The vermillion was darken with carbon black, and poorly mixed, with some particles in suspension sitting on the surface like lumps of coal when viewed with a microscope.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Dan San,
That sounds like my radio control Fokker Dr.1 i fly.After each time i fly it i have got this fuel and gunk all over my plane and yes it hits the rudder area too but i have not got hardly any on the top wing either.
Thought i just put my two cents worth since i have seen this with my Dr.1.
JP

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I think you have mis-read my post, I am not claiming it was soot I'm simply passing on Allan's views based on his thorough inspection of the fabric samples. Having said that you will notice though that the fuselage cross white areas are quite grey but there maybe other reasons for this.

I do not know what to think about the rudder as I believe it is quite possible that the one fitted may have been a replacement given that it does not show the same progression of markings changes that the other markings have been through.

On the subject of soot these rotary powered aircraft got a fair dose of this as well as the oil given the difficulty of constantly changing the benzine regulator with altitude and power settings.

There is a good shot in Imrie's Triplane book showing the underside of a crashed example along with a notation to observe the soot. I would not be surprised if 425/17 arrived painted the way I have discussed previously in this thread. If that was the case and the aircraft had been flown for some time and then at a later stage the underside was over-painted red, along with much of the rest of the aircraft (this would explain the over-painting of the various stencils with a thin layer), then it is entirely possible that soot was picked up during the repainting process.

A possible explanation for soot not being in the white areas is that they were touched up after the red paint had dried and more care might have been taken given it was white paint (note the cross on the bottom wing had never been completed which shows that the red was finished - as you would expect - prior to the white application).

If the repainting started on the lower surfaces then the paint may have been contaminated and transfered to other areas (Allan noted less soot the higher the samples were in the aircraft). I know there are many maybes in this explanation but its worth considering.

Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon;
I understand yo are quoting Alan Toelle.
I don't believe 425 was factory painted, because:
1. All the stencils were over painted. If it had been painted red at Fokker Flugzeugwerke, the red would have been painted red first and then all the stenciling would have been done afterwards. This is the was Goering's all white Fok.D.VII 5125/18 was done.
2.The poorly mixed red paint and the sloppy job with the crosses indicates to me it was done by the ground crew personnel in Jasta11.
3. In believe the same is true for Fok.DR.I 477/17.
4. For those who wish to see the dark red go to post #3, on rhe left and right sides are the dark red I have been talking about. Take a look for yourself.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

You may be correct if the aircraft had never been repainted but it quite obviously was.

As far as I know, no Dr.I left the factory with national markings that were not the old style cross on large cross fields and this is almost certainly true of 425/17 as we can still see the extent of the fields and we know the crosses have undergone changes.

The surviving fabric has no upper surface streaky camouflage, it seems unlikely that it could have left the factory with its stencils but no upper camouflage.

If the aircraft did at some stage have upper surface camouflage then how was it completely removed yet the stencils were left intact?

If it was possible to remove the streaky camouflage and leave the stencils, why didn't they remove the under surface blue which is clearly evident?

There are only two logical answers to this, either the aircraft left the factory painted red on the upper surfaces and blue underneath with normal national markings and stencils or it had CDL upper surfaces with normal markings, stencils and under surface camouflage, either way it could only have been intended for MvRs personal use.

I see you have changed your mind on Goering's all white D.VII which you were arguing was not painted at the factory as this was not mentioned on the acceptance sheets!

Langdon

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I believe that all the Fokker Triplanes that were accepted to the end of April 1918 were accepted with white cross fields and Iron Cross. The seven accepted in May had the Iron Crosses changed at Fokker to the balken cross.
Dr.I 425/17 was accepted on 8 January 1918 and DR.I 477/17 was accepted on an early date in February 1918. ( The Fokker acceptance records of February and March 1918 were lost.)
The delivery of DR.I 425/17 to Armee Flugpark 2 about 18 to 22 February 1918. I don't think MvR ever used DR.I 425/17 until a dew days before he was killed on 21 April 1918. There is no record of MvR flying Dr.I 425/17 until 19 April 1918. We can surmise and suppose til hell freezes over, and it does not change the known facts. The cross form order of 17 March 1918 was complied with at Le Chelle Airfield and the later change of 4 April 1918, correcting the cross form either at LeChelle Airfield or at Cappy after 12April 1918. I think the red paint job was done just before the cross modification because there is red under the last cross change.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[StephenLawson]

See Richthofen by A.E.Ferko. The idea that Dr.I 425/17 was painted at the factory was espoused by Mr. Ferko. His comments that he "glassed" original images (probably a jeweler's loop) and he could see the factory stencils as being overpainted. Also the idea that Dr.I 425/17 was not originally streaked but CDL also came from this same study. These images were published in the same reference and the pilot's left side is scared and chipped. This reveals only the clear doped linen underneath. Dan believes these images to be Dr.I 477/17 by the way.

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Stephen,
Of all kits out there in 1/28 and 1/32 which one is the best and 2nd best kits.
This is the first time in 20yrs that i have built a plastic Fokker Dr.1 model and the Revell and Hobbycraft are the same exact kits.
They need the gun belts.But it's fun to do custom work also.
As for decals for the 1/28 Dr.1 it's very hard to find different markings.
JP