True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

ManfredT · 12 July 2006, 01:17 PM

Biber-

thank you for your posting. Your asking for substantiation as foundation of veracity encourage me to the following offer:

Fok.Dr.I 521/17, Werknummer 2189,
16bit HDR scan, 4000 dpi optical resolution, 84.3 MB, on CD

Expensives:

Flight to Salzburg 200,- USD
Hotel "Zum Stadl" 128,- USD
Taxi 22,- USD
Booking 1 Day 1.440,- USD
(for a professional photographer)
Digital Imaging Processing 240,- USD
____________

2.030,- USD

I would like to donate half of these expensives to this community, so that the price for you is 1.015,- USD. With this offer you are obliged to post an image of the readable Werknummer on this thread.

Please send me a PM with your adress, I will give you my bank account. This offer is open until 07-17-2006.

Very best regards,
acer

PS May I bring at your attention that if you own the Triplane Book of Alex Imrie some 80 photos are from my collection (for no money at all), donated for people like you who are interested. (A lot of the photos are also to be seen in an Achim Engels publication, he did "found them on a fleamarket".)

Langdon · 12 July 2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acer

Langdon-

you do not owe any apology. It is very important to have a different look. But may I ask you what hard proof you have had before #234?

acer

That's kind of you Acer. The proof I had in that post is similar to yours but the difference is I know Alex Imrie and Taz but I only suspect who you are. If you cannot provide the photographic evidence you speak of then as far as I'm concerned you do not have it. That evidence was also backed up by the aircraft in the photo having a red, or at least dark colour, on its upper wing.

You provided half the photos in Imrie's book? That's funny as he claims they are from his collection and I would expect if half of them came from you then we would see you given credit. Also he could have got the identification of the photo correct if he took your advice.

Taz,

You are hearing what you wish to believe, I know exactly what you mean as I'm one of those who has travelled the world. But we are not asking for a secret photo here, the one you posted was taken from an original, if Acer posts his - or better still only a portion of it - then it will not be first generation anymore and he only has to show the important part. My prediction remains that it will not happen.

Cigogne,

I agree with you, my take was 2102 but the numbers were very indistinct and the other evidence, caption in the album and upper wing paint point very strongly to 2103.

Langdon

Dan_San_Abbott · 12 July 2006, 02:30 PM

Taz:
I for one has been accused of hoarding my information by a member of this Forum. He thought because he is who he is I should have given him the document he wanted. As it now stands if he was on fire, I would not urinate on him.
I have recently donated to the Forum Archive every article I have written. I did this in the hope it might help someone out.
However, when I pass into the Great Hangar in the Sky, my entire collection will be sold to the highest bidder. I suggested to Patti, To open the bidding at $100.000. There are about 100 colored 3 and 5 view drawing alone, at no minimum, no sale.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

margaret smith · 12 July 2006, 02:36 PM

Hello Taz! You said

von Greim's son may be still alive . Are you referring to Hubert von Greim who flew with the Luftwaffe during WW2 or did he have any other children who may have access to his diary.

RAGIII · 12 July 2006, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

Langdon, RAGIII, CW- I think it is important we realize some people have put years of effort and money into traveling to meet WW-I veterans and their families, haunting museums and their collections, exchanging photos with other collectors, and purchasing albums at auctions to put together their collections over a 20-50 year period. Ed Ferko even cashed in his whole life insurance policies to buy albums. I have been lucky to have access to some collectors' images and several have said "for your collection only, not to be shared" on the back in notes from deceased collectors. Many of these collections are worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars if sold slowly. Some collectors freely share their collections with people who have a legitimate need for the data such as authors, modelers, and aircraft builders/restorers. Peter Grosz is a saint in that respect. Greg VanWyngarden is very generous in that respect. Dan-San shares his knowledge freely, as well. Others feel they have devoted years and a considerable portion of their income to putting together a collection and see no benefit to sharing it except on an exchange basis. Especially if they intend to publish eventually. Nobody wants to be scooped with images from his own collection.

I have a very small collection and am glad to share it with other enthusiasts who have a need for the data. But if someone I do not know very well said "I hear you have a collection, send me everything you have" with nothing offered in exchange, the answer would be no. We have no right to demand access to another person's hard earned collection that they may have spent decades putting together. So Acer is completely within his rights to provide information to us without his having to show us the WN which proves his point. If we do not want to believe him, fine, but he owes us nothing. I am just grateful when we get somebody who has information and shares it with us, even if I do not get to see the image in question.

So in this age of instant gratification, there is nothing wrong with someone sitting on 40 years worth of sweat and blood saying "I do not think so" to our demands of "show me".

Taz
Terry Phillips

Taz, I understand what you are saying. Having just read acers post re the cost in US dollars he wants for the proof I guess we will never see the scan of the negative proving the identity as 521/17 :-( I will therefore have to go with my original feeling that results from the only printed material I have access to. I think the DR1 in question is 477/17 based on the pictures I have seen, the combat reports, and the Scan that you sent to me. I guess it is no different agreeing to disagree re 521/17 as it was doing the same re 486/17 with DSA. It is possible I am wrong, but I doubt we will see any hard evidence proving me wrong in my lifetime

with all respects to yourself and acer,
RAGIII
AKA Richard A. Geisler III

Dave_Watts · 13 July 2006, 12:41 AM

Hi all,

Here is a cropped photo courtesy, Fokker Dr.I Windsock Datafile Special, page 29. It is stated that it is w/n 2000 from aircraft Fokker Dr.I 416/17.

D R l 2000

Best,
Dave W.

The main reason I wanted to post this is to give you an idea of what the "D R l" looked like more straight on, and the numerals as well of course, like the "2" and the "0"s. It's interesting how the "0"s look so different from one to the other.

This was the best I could do on the scan...sorry.

Best,
Dave

ManfredT · 13 July 2006, 02:59 AM

Langdon-

of course, from the intro of the book you can not see what arrangement were made. Best you asked Alex. But one is for sure: I will not do such an idioty again.

acer

Biber · 13 July 2006, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acer

Biber-

thank you for your posting. Your asking for substantiation as foundation of veracity encourage me to the following offer...

Sorry if I touched a nerve. I was just expressing my experience and (apparently naive) impressions of the world of scholarship. It is very graceous of you to make the offer and it does indeed speek volumes. However, no thank you.

I congratulate you though, for getting such an affordable flight to Salzburg!

good luck!

Biber

Dave_Watts · 13 July 2006, 11:40 PM

Hi all,

acer,

I appreciate the investment in money, time, and effort you have made in obtaining your collection of images. As you disseminate the material over the next years your efforts will be appreciated by the WW1 aviation history community.

I've made numerous trips all over the world visiting Museums, archives, collections, historians, researchers, builders, collectors, experts, dealers, and "all sorts" over the past twenty-five years. I've made many friends on these treks, several life-time friends. Sure, I've had terrible experiences, but I've had fantastic experiences.

One of the worst that comes to mind is, around 1987, when Lech Walsea had become a thorn in the Soviets rump, I made a trek to Krakow to look at the collection of German aircraft they had from the 1945 Berlin Zeughaus Museum.

An airflight to Europe, riding trains for days in choking smoke filled cars, going behind the "Iron Curtain", being rousted by Czech guards at 1 am with them taking my passport for over an hour, I finally made my way there. The aircraft were housed in an ex-tank park building without heat or light. I had been corresponding with the curator for a few years before visiting. To make this short, it turned out in the last day there was a Soviet enacted "ban" on US visitors entering Polish museums. I was allowed to come in and give a gift to the curator, but no photos and no access to the aircraft, just a glimpse through holes in a curtain over a chain link fence. I could see the aircraft were unrestored, many in pieces, and stacked one upon another. That was it, back home with nothing. I did make another visit later that was great, but this was a real kick in the head.

Many other visits to other destinations have been very fruitful. As you get older you plan things better and jam your agenda full of visits and appointments so you really make things pay off. Over the years, I've shared a great deal of material with a great many people, and the great majority of the experiences have been positive. If you dwell on the negative, you'll think negatively. If it weren't for those who went before us that shared their material, we would have nothing to study. You hear crazy stories, what was that one...was it Ferko's widow that was instructed to destroy his archives? It seems to me it was something like this. Can you imagine! Fortunately, his collection ended up at the University of Texas at Dallas and who knows how much information will come out of the research that is done with that material.

We may know we're not going to live forever, but we figure we at least have some years ahead of us, but it may all be over tomorrow! I've lost friends due to accidents that I thought were going to be here for many many years. You might as well enjoy yourself and have some fun. Share your finds. You'll find it will come back to benefit you many times over. Sure there will be a trip of even a fall once in a while with people taking advantage of you, but your still here, they didn't kill you. When you share information, often someone else will find a clue or detail that will confirm something they were on the trail of and you were not even in the loop of thinking of, and they bring something new to the table.

Enough with the sermon, decide for yourself.

We don't want to see your extra sharp print of the same image that has already been posted.

I can't imagine a close-up from your source image of just the werk nummer would detract from the value of your photo, or cause you loss.

If the money means that much to you, I'll pitch in $50 to get you to post just the close-up of the werk nummer; throw in the flugel nummer as well for that price, and buy yourself dinner.

Maybe we can start a fund on the forum here? I've got $50 in it.

All said with respect,
Best wishes,
Dave W.

RAGIII · 13 July 2006, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Hi all,

I've been working on this image. I've gotten it to be worse in some ways, but maybe better in others. Any changes?

This is a tough one!

Best,
Dave W.

Just kidding!

I had to post this to get a reaction. What do you think this Werk Nummer is simply from looking at it, (not from researching the photo)?

I'll tell you tomorrow.

The main reason I wanted to post this is to give you an idea of what the "D R l" looked like more straight on, and the numerals as well of course.

This was the best I could do on the scan...sorry.

Best,
Dave

OK I will bite :-) 1868, 2068, 2868 ?
RAGIII