True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Just a heads up that I revised the werk nummer posting #306, explaining it is "2000".

I see RAG III just posted asking, go back and look again.

Best,
Dave W.

[ManfredT]

Dave-

as you now I jumped very late in this thread and just a second later I told myself what an idiot I am to do so. Inconvenient facts are not wanted here, as I have learned before (Ross Moorhouse, can you hear me?).

In reality I am not interested in that money. The offer was for biber only and is now closed.

If there is any chance to delete my postings about Fok. Dr.I 521/17, Werknummer 2189, I would be gratefull to the administrator.

acer

[Biber]

Originally Posted by acer

The offer was for biber only and is now closed.

Goodness, I'm flattered that the offer was so exclusive.

Would that I had such disposable cash to have paid you off and taken you out of the equation. That's just what you do with people who act like playground bullies hogging the ball that everybody else wants to play with. Interesting yet sad to think what motivates some people.



To everybody else -

In an effort to help discern the werk nummer, can anybody post some pics of a legible one or some sort of a "font chart" for comparison?

B

[ManfredT]

biber-

in #284 I mentioned the font character, but it seems so that people here are not used to work with fonts. Even in the bad scan of # 243 you can see the diagonal bar of the digit 8, if you know for what you are searching.(For instance take a Caslon No.223 or Baskerville equivalent).

Sorry about my poor knowledge of English, so I am not able to understand, what you have written in your last post. Should it be ironical? Just asking.

acer

[Taz]

Acer- It would be great if you told us a little about how you positively identify WNs. Most of us are real amateurs at it (except maybe Cicogne) and a few pointers would help.

Dave- If you use a descreening filter, it will eliminate a lot of the silkscreen distortion you are seeing. Most descreening filters are only good for 600 dpi or so, but that is usually a better image than one of higher res dots.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dave_Watts]

Hi guys,

acer, Sorry for the preaching. You must have some heavy scar tissue to not be able to post JUST the werk nummer.

Okay guys, we're back to our own devices.

Of interest here is the image I was trying to get the werk nummer from to possibly help out.

Photo courtesy, Fokker Dr.I Windsock Datafile Special, page 29. It is stated that it is w/n 2000 from aircraft Fokker Dr.I 416/17.



Using our choices from the posting page, here are the werk nummers in Book Antiqua, so not exactly right.

2103 2189

Taz,

If you could please give it a shot scanning the werk nummer from the publication I tried to and see if you can get rid of the dots.
Best wishes,
Dave W.

[Taz]

Dave- If you want to see it, I have access to an original print. Let me know if you want to see a scan.

Acer- I just wish I had 80 original or near original Dr.I photos. I think I have 5 or 6 at most and you have seen most of those. Everything else I have has been borrowed from friends and museums or purchased from the IWM.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Hi all,

acer,

I appreciate the investment in money, time, and effort you have made in obtaining your collection of images. As you disseminate the material over the next years your efforts will be appreciated by the WW1 aviation history community.

I've made numerous trips all over the world visiting Museums, archives, collections, historians, researchers, builders, collectors, experts, dealers, and "all sorts" over the past twenty-five years. I've made many friends on these treks, several life-time friends. Sure, I've had terrible experiences, but I've had fantastic experiences.

One of the worst that comes to mind is, around 1987, when Lech Walsea had become a thorn in the Soviets rump, I made a trek to Krakow to look at the collection of German aircraft they had from the 1945 Berlin Zeughaus Museum.

An airflight to Europe, riding trains for days in choking smoke filled cars, going behind the "Iron Curtain", being rousted by Czech guards at 1 am with them taking my passport for over an hour, I finally made my way there. The aircraft were housed in an ex-tank park building without heat or light. I had been corresponding with the curator for a few years before visiting. To make this short, it turned out in the last day there was a Soviet enacted "ban" on US visitors entering Polish museums. I was allowed to come in and give a gift to the curator, but no photos and no access to the aircraft, just a glimpse through holes in a curtain over a chain link fence. I could see the aircraft were unrestored, many in pieces, and stacked one upon another. That was it, back home with nothing. I did make another visit later that was great, but this was a real kick in the head.

Many other visits to other destinations have been very fruitful. As you get older you plan things better and jam your agenda full of visits and appointments so you really make things pay off. Over the years, I've shared a great deal of material with a great many people, and the great majority of the experiences have been positive. If you dwell on the negative, you'll think negatively. If it weren't for those who went before us that shared their material, we would have nothing to study. You hear crazy stories, what was that one...was it Ferko's widow that was instructed to destroy his archives? It seems to me it was something like this. Can you imagine! Fortunately, his collection ended up at the University of Texas at Dallas and who knows how much information will come out of the research that is done with that material.

We may know we're not going to live forever, but we figure we at least have some years ahead of us, but it may all be over tomorrow! I've lost friends due to accidents that I thought were going to be here for many many years. You might as well enjoy yourself and have some fun. Share your finds. You'll find it will come back to benefit you many times over. Sure there will be a trip of even a fall once in a while with people taking advantage of you, but your still here, they didn't kill you. When you share information, often someone else will find a clue or detail that will confirm something they were on the trail of and you were not even in the loop of thinking of, and they bring something new to the table.

Enough with the sermon, decide for yourself.

We don't want to see your extra sharp print of the same image that has already been posted.

I can't imagine a close-up from your source image of just the werk nummer would detract from the value of your photo, or cause you loss.

If the money means that much to you, I'll pitch in $50 to get you to post just the close-up of the werk nummer; throw in the flugel nummer as well for that price, and buy yourself dinner.

Maybe we can start a fund on the forum here? I've got $50 in it.

All said with respect,
Best wishes,
Dave W.

Very well said Dave, I too will put up $50 for a clear look at the works number. I still find this whole scenario of it being 521/17 unlikely, firstly it has the over-painted upper wing and there is the caption in the original album but to add to this is the possibility that 521/17 was not even delivered until the end of April, unfortunately we will never know as the acceptance sheets are missing for this aircraft and a number before it but we do know that 522/17 was accepted on the 17th of April and would therefore not have been delivered for a week or two after that date, if 521/17 was similar in its acceptance date then it is highly unlikely to have been at LeChelle.

I would be very happy to be proved wrong Acer.

Langdon

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

With some help from Taz I can present a better image of the werk nummer for 416/17, wn 2000. Thank you Taz.



Langdon,

On the acceptance of 521/18, it is difficult to say much. Earlier in this thread, back on posting #51 when we were debating whether this aircraft was 477/17, I posted;

"From my data 477/17 was accepted in either February or March of 1918 (the missing acceptances). When do you place him in this plane? It must be late March to give him enough time to have received the plane from the factory."

The same can be said for 521/18, it is from this "lost" period.

This was always an issue with me.

March 20th, is approximately when these photos were taken at Lechelle.

January 8th, 425/17 was accepted, plenty of time to get to Lechelle.

Dan-San will be saying the "all red" Dr.I in front of the hangers is 477/17 and the other aircraft we are going in circles about it 521/18. (Is this your thinking Dan-San?)

The point is when do you cut off the acceptance date of an aircraft (with the earliest date being February 1st, Friday or February 4th, Monday), and still get it to the front to Lechelle by March 20th?

477/17 and 521/17 both fall into this category.

It's not giving a lot of time to get these aircraft there, but I'm certain it's possible,...just calling it close.

425/17, the plane that was accepted a month before, can't be proven to be
there, but aircraft a month later possibly not accepted in time to be there....are there?!

Frustrating, but you can't use the acceptance date as a solid leg of your table.

Best,
Dave W.

[ManfredT]

Taz-

I know you are a kind man, but this whole system of characters and figures, used not only by the Fokker factory, is one key to identify aircrafts of different periods. I worked for it over years and want to share only some hints. Thank you for understanding.

Dave-

You are on the right way, but take the bold or fat family and you will be aware of the diagonal bar at the figure 8 I was talking about.


Langdon-

It is not my duty to proof you (or anyone else) right or wrong. I gave just an information from my collection, which I am sorry for in the meantime,


acer