True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Taz]

Acer- Here is hoping you publish a huge book sometime soon. Just make sure it is in English and German. We have lots of people who can help with the English part. Should be a best seller with the amount of data you have. Better yet, how about a 7 volume set like Neal O'Connor?

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Dave Watts:
In reviewing the acceptance dates for the DR.I machines in question:

DR.I 425/17, Monday, 8 January 1918. When did it arrive at the front? Around or about Monday 22 February 1918.

DR.I 477/17, The acceptance was around or about 5 February 1918. It arrived at Armee Flugpark 2 on or about Tuesday, 19 February 1918.

DR.I 521/17, My estimate is Dr.I 521/17 was accepted on or about Monday,3 March 1918 and was delivered to AFP2 around Tuesday, 18 March 1918.

After acceptance, I have estimated it took fifteen days, to s dissassemble, load, block, transport to AFP2. At AFP2 the DR.I machines would be unloaded, moved to the hangars, reassembled and test flown.
Last flew Fok.DR.I 152/17 on 18 March 1918, scored his 66th victory.
Jage Nr.1 was based at Avenes-le Sec until 19 March 1918.
Jage Nr.1 moved to the forward landing field at Awoingt on 20 March 1918.
First victory with Fok.DR.I 477/17 on 24 March 1918, his 67th.
Jage Nr.1 moved to Lechelle Airfield on 26 March 1918.
Fok.DR.I 477/17 and Fok.DR.I 521/17? photographed at Lechelle around 2:00 to 3:00 pm. (Time estimate based on angle of shadows).
Jage Nr.1 moved to Cappy Airfield on 12 April 1918.

Have I answered your questions Dave?
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I am interested in the formula you use to work out suspected acceptance dates, could you explain your methods please? I would have thought that for 521/17 the acceptance would be closer to the known date of 522/17 which was accepted six weeks after 521/17 according to your work. The known dates are:

485/17 24/4/18
522/17 17/4/18
524/17 17/5/18
526/17 28/5/18
527/17 24/4/18 (V.7)
528/17 6/5/18

Of course none of these aircraft could have been at LeChelle because the duration between acceptance and delivery seems to be about 2 to 3 weeks according to your figures. This makes it very difficult to believe that 521/17 could have been delivered by early April let alone accepted in early March. Having said that there is a large gap in acceptance dates between 467/17 on the 29th January to 485/17 which was accepted nearly three months later so I conceed that anything is possible.

Acer it is not my intention to offend you, my guess is that some here seem to know you and trust your opinion, unfortunately I do not know you and cannot understand why you make statements which you are not willing to defend. If I have to wait for a book you are publishing then so be it but by posting the part of the photo which shows the works number should not ruin your book.

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Will someone please tell me who is Acer ?
JP

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Dan-San,

I didn't mean you when I stated;

"Frustrating, but you can't use the acceptance date as a solid leg of your table."

...that it was directed at you, if you look at my last posting you will see I was directing my answers to Langdon.

As to your specualtion on the acceptances and delivery dates on 477/18 and 521/18, you can't say, and can only speculate in very rough terms. Now if you have something from a document stating so and so aircraft was shipped on so and so date to a Flugpark, or something to that effect, I'm all ears. All you can say is they were accepted in the "missing records" period from Friday, February 1st to Friday, March 29th, (no acceptances on the weekends). Obviously, they had to be accepted in time to allow enough time for them to get to the front in time for their first recorded documented usage. If 477/17 was flown for the first time by MvR for his victory in it on March 24th, you could say it had to be there the night before.

Does anyone have concrete documented service information stating 521/17 saw action on this or that such date so it could be placed at Lechelle? If the paint scheme is known, photographic information would also be a way to date the aircraft in service.

I think the acceptance sheets have to be left out of this discussion as they can't prove it was impossible for either aircraft to have been at Lechelle. They only infer that the aircraft were, in so many words, "very new".

Best,
Dave W.

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

At one time we were in a discussion of timelines and what photos were taken on what days.

Here is our photo reported to be of either 477/17 or 521/17.


As mentioned before we see paint cans on both sides of the fuselage. I contend they have just overpainted the rudder and fuselage crosses.



Here we have close-up as seen thru the wings of the photo from above. Note you can see the flight jackets on the port wings of both of aircraft.


Here we have the lineup as previously seen thru the wings in the previous photo. Note you can see the flight jackets on the port wings of both of the first two aircraft. If you compare this with the above photo, you will see they are in exactly the same position indicating the photos were taken within "minutes" of each other.


Here is a close-up of the end of the flightline as seen in the above image. You can see they are in the process of changing/updating the cross form on the fuselages and rudders. I believe if you look closely you can see a soldier painting the fuselage cross of the aircraft with the updated rudder. He is blocking our view of the fuselage cross.

For sure these two photos were taken at the same time.

Best,
Dave W.

[Cigogne]

He is someone who both Alex Imrie, Peter Grosz, and Greg VanWyngarden go to for information and confer with about the intricacies of German aviation photos. Peter complimented him once by saying he is the eminent German WWI aviation photo "archaeologist"

That is why those who know him respect him.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
On the Fokker acceptance list for January 1918, it seems that 4 to 6 DR.I machines per day (not every day).in the 16 days where aircraft were accepted. In these 16 days, there were 56 Fok.Dr.I machines accepted.
from this we can deduce that 56 / 16= 3.5 machines per day.
Last highest number accepted in January 1918, DR.I 467/17 accepted on 29 January. Number of machines to DR.I 477/17 = 10
First work day , Friday, 1 Feb. 3.5
Saturday, 2 Feb. 3.5
Monday 4 Feb. 3.5
Tuesday 5 Feb. 3.5

Persented for acceptance 14 Fok.Dr.I machine which allows for skipping about the Army serial numbers.
Langdon, you tend to nitpick, I don't do things half-fast, I work answers out logically or mathematically before it is presented.
The Dr.I identified by Acer, DR.I 571/17 does not have its upper wing painted red, it is in streaked camouflage as shown in the rear view blow-up of the panorama scene taken on 26 March 1918. (Imrie data) posted by Dave Watts.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

I do not "nit-pick" but you certainly put absolute claims about without the evidence to back them up, I asked you about your workings on this because I have not spent a lot of time on the acceptance sheets and I am interested in how you draw your conclusions, I find it unusual that a group of aircraft with their serial numbers immediately after the aircraft in question were built so much later but other aircraft like 525/17 were obviously about earlier (MvR flight on the 17/3/18).

Rather than relying on identifying the wing colour of an aircraft in the far distance of a photo how about studying the close-up, look at the leading edge of the top wing, it is obviously over-painted, you cannot even see the cross fields. The combat reports are pretty clear on the scheme of 477/17 and 425/17 whether this aircraft is 521/17 or 477/17 does not really matter much. Your whole claim is based on 425/17 not being mentioned and discrediting the combat reports which were translated for the Official, War in the air history in the mid 1920s.

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

This might help illustrate what Langdon is talking about;


Suspect plane.


Close-up/crop of top wing.


Photo of 198/17.



Close-up/crop of top wing. You can see the white field backgrounds extended to the leading edge.

From this I would have to say the top wing crosses from the suspect aircraft have already been modified or cropped to an outlined form.

Best,
Dave W.