True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[Langdon]

Thanks Dave, note how the demarcation between the upper colour and lower colour is much lower than normal on the disputed aircrafts top wing, also the way it is wavy, the whole upper wing has been over painted, at least along the leading edge but it is hard to believe that only the leading edge has been painted.

Dan-San,

Around 300 Dr.Is built in 9 months, February and March 1918 saw the largest production, if the factory only worked a 5 day week - which would be hard to believe during wartime - then the most built, averaged over a month during that period, is 3 per day, if they worked a 7 day week then the production was a little over 2 per day during the busiest period when averaged over the two month period. The point I am making is that your seemingly exact figure - no range provided - could just as easily be many weeks out and as we can see by the surviving acceptance figures, the aircraft did not necessarily follow one another as their works numbers might imply. The larger production figures you mention seem only to be over very short periods and cannot be used as a general guide.

Langdon

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Originally Posted by Cigogne

He is someone who both Alex Imrie, Peter Grosz, and Greg VanWyngarden go to for information and confer with about the intricacies of German aviation photos. Peter complimented him once by saying he is the eminent German WWI aviation photo "archaeologist"

That is why those who know him respect him.

Thanks Cigogne,
He seems to know his stuff very well.I learn alot just by reading this thread
I never dreamed this thread would put out this much information.
I love this place....these experts are the best they have today.
JP

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Langdon

at least along the leading edge but it is hard to believe that only the leading edge has been painted.
Langdon

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Close-up/crop of top wing.

Now this may be a possibility, maybe the wing fabric was repaired? Looking at the cropped photo Dave posted. If you look at the tip of the wing in the right hand side of your computer screen you can see part of the upper wing as it curves and it appears lighter than the leading edge for at least 1/4 of the wing's span.

CWatson

[Langdon]

CWatson,

Hard to believe that the entire leading edge required repair and therefore only that area was over-painted in a solid colour.

This looks to be a relatively new aircraft as the markings are those from the factory, the changes being made to the crosses are the first to have been made. My guess is the top wing has been hurriedly over-painted for a flight commander.
Langdon

[gipsymoth236k]

You guys DO know that the leading edge cover on the Fokker Dr.I wings went through some changes, right?

Regards, Gary

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
Whatever your information source is, it is incorrect. During WW1 the German aircraft industry worked 6 day a week and 10 hours per day. Most factories worked two shifts. I would recommend you read " German Air Power in World War I, by John H. Morrow,Jr. University of Nebraska Press, 1982.
Fokker Flugzeugwerke production capacity in the first half of 1918 was less than 100 per month. January, 82; February and March data NA, April, 88;
May, 151; June, 110; July, 153; August, 178 to Germany and 8 to Austria; September, 112; October 206, November, full month, 83. The average for the above 9 months is 130 aircraft per month. The average for the last 5 month is 147.8. In December 1917, Idflieg rated Fokker Flugzeug production capacity at 100 per month.
Dave may have the February-March total, my estimate is 175 for both months.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Dan-San,

We are discussing triplane production.

Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane" page 120.

1917
Aug 2
Sept 12
Oct 32
Nov 16
Dec 55

1918
Jan 54
Feb & March 125
April 13
May 10

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Langdon:
I did not make an exact claim of the date of acceptance of either Fok.DR.I 477/17 and Fok.DR.I 521/17. In my statement of acceptance dates, I said,"on or about." That Langdon is far from precise!
Inasmuch as the photograph has been identified by Acer, who some think is a reliable accurate source of information, the discussion of the how the wing was painted is moot. As is most of your posts, you make inaccurate statement(s) without a basis of fact. A close examination of the leading of the cropped leading edge photo, counting from the near wing tip the dark leading edge stops at the fourth rib, and resumes at the nineth rib. And it is the same on the other end. Your guessing that the upper wing was painted for the Commander is not correct either, however this is moot! This is another of those cases.
It appears to me that you are not well informed about wartime production in Germany.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

The following are the facts I will take away from this thread:
1.Based on verified research, with pictures posted of fabric samples from the crash etc. , I believe that the all red bird at Lechelle is 425/17.
A. The crosses and fabric of 425/17 bear no evidence of streaking or any Fokker Olive Brown.
B. The crosses were reduced per all orders using RED, BLACK, and White. This would not have been the case if 425/17 were in an army park in Standard Fokker Finish. DSA has Never given a Reason for this? Yes the crosses may have been changed at a park, but with standard paint, not RED!
C. Combat reports do not support 477/17 being ALL RED, at least at the time of the Lechelle pics.
2. I will believe NO unsupported theories or statements on Aircraft ID from here on, Not by ANYONE!! Not in ANY BOOK!!
A. I believed Imrie read the number under the wing as 2103. (Almost Certainly). This coupled with the apparent overpainting of the leading edge of the upper wing the combat reports etc. seemed to be conclusive ...Taz supported this with his interpretation of an enlarged digitally enhanced copy....
Of course Dan San Abbott was adamant that the aircraft was 486/17 as reported by Lehman.(SP) I would have to guess that Leamann saw 2112 using his copy of the same picture. Then we have the Well respected , But,anonymous acer who says the aircraft is none of the above . He has the Original and can read 2189 proving this aircraft to be 521/17,Found in the Diary of the Pilot who flew this aircraft! The more I think about this the ONLY person who put up any REAL evidence was the scan posted by TAZ. Too bad it was not readable on this forum ( although I still swear it looks much different when sent as an e mail to me!) Imrie doesnt have any proof other than his word as to his interpretation, neither does Leamann, and of course acer has offered NO proof either. When it comes down to it, NO ONE HAS offered FACTS as DSA likes to say. Others can believe whoever they want, I believe NO ONE!
B. Facts, pictures with clearly visible werke numbers will be all I accept, ALL other info is conjecture based on someones interpretation! Other FACTUAL research as presented reference the fabric of 425/17.

My conclusion on 477/17, or 486/17, or 521/17......... WHO KNOWS YOU CANT READ THE NUMBER!
RAGIII
PS:One final question for acer. How did von Greim pick this photo out as HIS aircraft, 521/17 from an archive using the technology available at the time? Are you saying the number is clearly readable on the original in its original size?

[ManfredT]

RAGIII-

Oberleutnant Robert Greim (not "von" during wartime) did not search in an archive for a photograph of his newly acquired aircraft from Jasta 11, together with two other ones. He just took a photograph along with for his album.

When the last two photographs of this aircraft were taken, Greim was in hospital. But the aircraft was in a much more handicaped situation than his owner.

acer