True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

Taz · 9 June 2006, 01:05 PM

Dan-San- Dr.I 114/17 was written off in an accident by MvR in October, 1917.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Langdon · 9 June 2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Langdon:
Sorry if dodged your question. There is a very large piece from the left side of the fuselage that Alan inspected, on it under the red was Fok.DR.I 425/17. And the style of the lettering is definitely Fokker Flugzeugwerke. I have his report on this piece and I don't know if this is the piece that he idenified as not having any streaked camouflage. On my piece of fabric only had clear dope, 2 coats and one coat of very dark red. I have difficulty a production aircraft would go through Army in house inspection and final inspection and test flown in natural doped fabric. without any notation on the acceptance documents explaning it will go to MvR. It arrives at the Front in February 1918, while he is flying DR.I 114/17, DR.I 152/17, DR.I 127/17 and Dr.I 477/17. An yet there is no mention of this machines in his combat reports, his letters to Mama. From that I can only conclude that he did not fly this machine until 19 April 1918 or maybe a day or so before that, however that is supposition. There is no evidence anywhere, any statements from his pilots about this machine until his combat report of 19 April 1918. You cannot prove he has ever flown it before 19 April !918 and neither can I or anyone else. My personal opinion is the fuselage was recovered. Most likely at the Army Flugpark 2. Why is there no record of anyone not flying 425/17 until MvR scores a victory on 19 April 1918, It had to be somewhere for some reason, my opinion is maybe in transit it was damaged in shipment and sat at AFP2 four 3 months. Maybe it was painted red at AFP 2 for MvR??? He had alot of Horse Power! Maybe........?
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

It seems we are getting closer to agreeing on this. For some reason 425/17 is not mentioned until around the end of April 1918 but we know the aircraft had been around much longer, in fact it was accepted on January the 8th 1918 and as I have established for you its national markings changes provide strong evidence that the aircraft was reserved for MvR prior to the beginning of March otherwise it would not have been painted with narrow white borders surrounding its Iron Cross markings.

You made the point that you have difficulty in the concept of a production aircraft going through an Army in house inspection and final inspection and test flown in natural doped fabric and I agree with you. Therefore it is highly likely that 425/17 went through this process painted in its red scheme with all stencils and blue under-surface camouflage (there really are no other possibilities).

You also mention you have difficulty that it could go through this process "without any notation on the acceptance documents explaining it will go to MvR". This should not surprise you, in one of your postings above you state that Goering's all white D.VII was factory finished and as you know there was no mention in the acceptance sheets of its non standard scheme nor who it was destined to be flown by. This is not surprising though as there is no column on the acceptance sheet for such a notation nor, apart from our historical interest, would there be any need for this information.

You are correct that I cannot prove that the aircraft had been flown prior to April 19 but there is more circumstantial evidence for, than against. It seems likely given the time it was attached to the Jasta (attested by its national markings changes).

You are also correct when you say that... "He had alot of Horse Power! Maybe........?"

Langdon

Dave_Watts · 10 June 2006, 01:23 AM

Hi all,

I feel out of my neck of the woods when talking MvR's Dr.I, but that won't stop me.

I like to use my imagination when looking at these subjects and I got to thinking about 425/17. If we go with the premise that MvR's 425/17 was painted red at the factory, with the known facts, we can speculate on a interesting scenario.

The facts;

By January, MvR's score stands at 63, the highest of anyone.

We start with a red, light blue underneath, triplane (425/17, werks no. 2009, Oberursel no. 2478) finished, test flown by Weidner, and accepted at the Fokker factory on January 8th, 1918.

We know that the upcoming Fighter Trials were held beginning on January 21st. Fokker shipped the V.7S, V.9, V.17, and V.18 on January 17th to Adlershof, immediately followed by the V.11/I and V.13/I on January 18th, and lastly the V.7G on January 28th.

MvR flies the V.11/I on January 23rd and voices his concerns. MvR flies the V.11/II sometime after the 27th and gives rave reviews. By February 3rd, the V.18 is declared the winner. On February 4th, the V.11/I was type tested to destruction. Further development with prototype V.21 found the final form of the production D.VII.

The scenario;

For German propaganda and Fokker's self interests, he comes up with the proposal of a specially prepared aircraft for Germany's top supreme ace. He runs the idea past the powers that be and recieves approval. Fokker knows there will be an upcoming Fighter Trials and what better venue to present the specially prepared aircraft to the supreme ace,

Manfred Von Richthofen. Fokker has this special "all" red triplane prepared and painted for MvR completed and accepted on January 8th. Over the next 9 to 20 days, Fokker is shipping his prototypes to the Fighter Trials. Fokker has the red triplane loaded up and included with his shipment of test planes. All aircraft are unloaded and assembled at Adlershof. The Fighter Trials begin on January 21st. MvR flies the V.11/II sometime after the 27th and gives rave reviews. The aircraft still utilizes a full flying comma rudder. By February 3rd, with MvR's full endorsement, the V.18 is declared the winner. It has a full flying comma rudder, but also utilizes a vertical fin on the tail feathers. Immediately following the official declaration of the V.18 as the winner of the Fighter Trials, Fokker unveils the all red Triplane to everyone's loud approval. MvR gives a parade flight of the new aircraft to huge applause and cheering. Unfortunately, photographs are banned at the event, so the celebration of Fokker being declared the winner as well as MvR flying his all red mount are missed for prosperity. On February 4th, the V.11/I was type tested to destruction. Further development with prototype V.21 found the final form of the production D.VII with the familiar rudder and vertical fin configuration as well as a wing faired over the landing gear axle. MvR ferries his new Dr.I to Lechelle to have the undersides of the wings painted all red. At the same time the cross format is updated. The aircraft is to catch up with MvR later on.

How do you like that one guys?

How would you further adapt this to fit to a logical/plausable reality?

Dan-San...remember this is a scenario, not what happened. I've blended facts with fiction, or at best, plausible fiction. The timeline is plausible, the facts I've stated are known, it's a nice story.

I've always wondered why there aren't more photos of the "winner" aircraft of the Fighter Trials. You would think there would be a shot of Fokker next to the winning aircraft. Nor are there more photos of MvR's 425/17. It seems like often where his red Albatros went, photos were taken. I guess it was winter time and little flying was done with his Dr.I.

Am I correct in saying MvR had a stable of Dr.I's he was flying, so he wasn't identified as strongly with one aircraft as he was with his Albatros?

Best,
Dave W.

Langdon · 10 June 2006, 05:36 AM

Dave I like your thinking, it would fit well with Hollywood but could also easily be the way it happened. Wouldn't it be great if there was some proof.

I believe there is a greater chance of this aircraft being custom built for MvR than not. The proximity to the fighter trials makes your hypothesis a feasible one but unfortunately we may never know.

Langdon

Taz · 10 June 2006, 01:47 PM

Dave- You should be a writer because your scenario would make a great movie or book scene. The only bone of contention now is the early photos of an all-red Triplane some believe to be 425/17 and Dan-San believes to be 477/17. Your scenario matches with Alan's analyses of fabric samples and the theory the all red Triplane at Lechelle is 425/17. Incidentally, 425/17 was fitted with an Oberursel with copper induction pipes, not a Le Rhone.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Dave_Watts · 10 June 2006, 02:18 PM

Hi Langdon and Taz,

Thanks for the comments. Reread my posting as I tweaked it a little more.

Best,
Dave W.

Dan_San_Abbott · 10 June 2006, 03:25 PM

Gentlemen:
The problem with that scenario is the All red DR.I at LeChelle is Dr.477/17. He flew it at Awoingt and scored his 20th victory with Dr.I 477/17 and took it with him to LeChelle Airfield.
The problem is you can't get MvR in the cockpit of Dr.I 425/17 until 19 April 1918. No fiction here, all facts.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Langdon · 10 June 2006, 08:10 PM

Dan-San,

Not all facts as there is a photo of 477/17 with streaky camouflage and late style crosses. You presume as we do the identity of the aircraft in the photos. What we do know is fact is that 425/17 and 477/17 were aircraft personalised for MvR. What we do know is that 425/17 was painted the way the aircraft was in the photo, you presume 477/17 was also.

You are yet to concede that 425/17 was at one stage painted with narrow bordered Iron Crosses. In what era would you expect this to have occurred?

CWatson · 10 June 2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langdon

Dan-San,
Not all facts as there is a photo of 477/17 with streaky camouflage and late style crosses.

I have never seen a picture of a plane confirmed to be 477/17 in factory finish just the one assumed to be 477/17 at LeChelle under going a cross change. It was my understanding part of the werke number is visible put it in the same range/batch of planes that 477/17 was in. If only one number is not visible it leaves ten planes it could be. Has anyone listed what other Dr.1's delivery numbers fall in this range and if they would be at the same airfield at that time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langdon

You presume as we do the identity of the aircraft in the photos. What we do know is fact is that 425/17 and 477/17 were aircraft personalised for MvR. What we do know is that 425/17 was painted the way the aircraft was in the photo, you presume 477/17 was also.

I agree both were personalized for him but not at what level, factory, air park, or Jasta level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langdon

You are yet to concede that 425/17 was at one stage painted with narrow bordered Iron Crosses. In what era would you expect this to have occurred?

Did not most Dr1s have their cross fields reduced? I thought tht was common practice.

Nobody mentioned the rudder remains on 425/17's wreck appears to have never been painted red, why? I do not think they would take the time to put a new rudder on it to change the color. 152/17's was red at one time and it was over painted white at a later date, see the pictures of it post war the white has worn off and showing the red undercoat.

Another thing I would like to know is if the red paint used on 425/17's original red coat matches the red in the cross fields. Why? The photos showing (which are very clear) the inverted "V" plane has a even color on the fuselage and cross fields as if all the red was applied at the same time the Iron Crosses were reduced to just a outline, I do not believe spare red paint would have came with the plane.

To me the remains of 425/17 looks like the plane was red with white crossfields. Then the crossfields were reduced ,then they were altered to strait crosses.

The "V" plane no matter how it came from the factory looks like the red was evenly applied across the fuselage and the crossfield at the same time then at a later date altered to strait crosses.

CWatson

Langdon · 11 June 2006, 01:23 AM

I have never seen a picture of a plane confirmed to be 477/17 in factory finish just the one assumed to be 477/17 at LeChelle under going a cross change. It was my understanding part of the werke number is visible put it in the same range/batch of planes that 477/17 was in. If only one number is not visible it leaves ten planes it could be. Has anyone listed what other Dr.1's delivery numbers fall in this range and if they would be at the same airfield at that time?

Alex Imrie is about the most cautious researcher you can find, if he's not 100% certain he will qualify his statement, in his book on page 65 he states for photo caption 95: "...Factory-applied stencilling under the centre-section of the top wing shows that this is almost certainly 477/17 (works number2103)." The point I was making is we do not know how 477/17 was painted, Dan-San assumes it was the same as 425/17 because this was the aircraft he achieved victories on when the LeChelle photos were taken. If one number cannot be read then that can cause difficulties but the red wing probably also helps to identify the aircraft.

I agree both were personalized for him but not at what level, factory, air park, or Jasta level.

I have been into this is great detail above for 425/17. It depends if you think an aircraft could have been accepted by the Army, unpainted.

Did not most Dr1s have their cross fields reduced? I thought tht was common practice.

It was but the point I was making is at what time did this occur? Certainly not after the required cross change.

Nobody mentioned the rudder remains on 425/17's wreck appears to have never been painted red, why? I do not think they would take the time to put a new rudder on it to change the color. 152/17's was red at one time and it was over painted white at a later date, see the pictures of it post war the white has worn off and showing the red undercoat.

Take a look at other Jasta 11 aircraft, when they changed the cross fields to the narrow type they also similarly changed the rudder cross.

Another thing I would like to know is if the red paint used on 425/17's original red coat matches the red in the cross fields. Why? The photos showing (which are very clear) the inverted "V" plane has a even color on the fuselage and cross fields as if all the red was applied at the same time the Iron Crosses were reduced to just a outline, I do not believe spare red paint would have came with the plane.

With what did Jasta 11 paint their other aircraft? All cowlings and wheels were painted with the same colour. We know that 425/17 underwent three cross changes, two of those required red to be applied and you cannot notice that in the photos. The red was the same shade because it was made from the same ingredient vermillion. If you cannot believe they had spare red then you have to look at the bigger picture. My theory above is that the whole aircraft did recieve a coat of paint when the narrow cross fields were applied (see above) and the stencils and undersurface were over-painted.

To me the remains of 425/17 looks like the plane was red with white crossfields. Then the crossfields were reduced then they were altered to strait crosses.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, you thought they had no paint.

The "V" plane no matter how it came from the factory looks like the red was evenly applied across the fuselage and the crossfield at the same time then at a later date altered to strait crosses.

I agree.

Langdon