True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 08:40 PM

Taz,

Thank you for your comments.

CWATSON,

I have no doubt the plane undergoing the cross change with what appears to be a overpainted upper wing usually identified as 477/17 is not the all red plane with iron crosses,the pictures were taken the same day on the same airfield and Dan San mentions there is a picture that shows the wings of both aircraft at the same time. I do not have the picture Dan San mentions here but he states from the angle mentioned it was taken you can see the wing is not red but factory streaked, if you have this picture please post it. If you believe 477/17 was painted with at least a red wing this can not be the plane.

The aircraft identified by Alex Imrie in his excellent book definitely has its top wing painted in a solid dark colour, if you look at the photo carefully you can see the quite uneven demarcation line along the leading edge which is lower than the standard.

As Taz points out it fits MvRs combat report descriptions (different to the all red description for 425/17) and has passed Alex's rigorous standards for identification.

You mention there may be remains of the rudder in the IWM. If anyone had pictures of this material it would end the discussion for good(yeah right ). If the rudder material had no red under the white but had a Iron cross under the strait cross it would prove it was not the "V" plane because the "V" plane is pictured at a time when other planes are already undergoing cross changes to the strait crosses so the would be no reason to paint a early iron cross before a later cross was added if the rudder had been recovered as you state may be the case.

If the material shows no sign of red or iron cross under the white but just the later strait cross then the argument for a repaired and recovered would be proven.

I have a photo showing the rudder, with an identification tag attached, after it had been removed from the aircraft. What became of the rudder is anyones guess, like the Voss rudder it has disappeared but they may still lurk somewhere in the IWM.

I think what you are referring to is the fabric from the rudder which I understand is held by the Royal Canadian Military Institute in Toronto Canada. A friend of mine has a small piece from this rudder and it has no red under the white.

If the rudder shows signs of the original cross that would not settle the debate, it would also need to show the werks number to guarantee its originality.

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFitz

Well, according to Jagar1 the bird in post #63 is Hemer's DR1. See the thread on Hemer's DR1 for a better photo.

If you are speaking of the photo posted by Jagar1 in the thread mentioned above then it is not the same aircraft. The one identified as 477/17 does not have the access door and it is painted differently. Also note the aileron position, the top wing colour and the contrast of the photo.

Langdon

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Gentlemen:
I wish to thank Jagar for cogent observation. It this Ltn.

Franz Hemer's
Dr.I, then it is not Dr.I 477/17.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Certainly was a kick in the head, how did it feel?

Taz · 13 June 2006, 09:24 PM

I just made a 2400 dpi scan (500MB) of a first copy print of photo #95 from Alex Imrie's Triplane book. The WN I read from the scan and using my thread counting loupe on the 4.5"x6.5" print is 2103, which equates to Dr.I 477/17, as Alex stated in his book. My print says the original is in Ed Ferko's UTD collection. It would be easy to misread the WN as 2112 without careful examination. The photo Dan-San references from Alex' German Fighter Units June 1917-1918 is also contained in two parts in Greg VanWyngarden's von Richthofen's Flying Circus photos 48 and 49. Photo #95 in Triplanes shows a line-up of Jasta 11 Dr.Is in the background (Steinhauser's Dr.I is easlily identifiable on the left) with no aircraft except 477/17 having had their fuselage or rudder crosses converted to Balkenkreuz standard. The photo Dan-San refers to was obviously taken at a different time and from a different camera location. It shows a line-up of Jasta 6 Dr.Is on the right and a more random placement of Dr.Is, some from Jasta 11, on the left. All the Dr.Is in this photo have had their fuselage and rudder crosses converted to Balkenkreuz standard. This conversion takes time. In the background of the aircraft on the left (photo #49 in Greg's book) a Triplane top wing only is visible which has been overpainted (red presumably) and could be 477/17, 425/17, 127/17 or 152/17. Nothing conclusive can be determined from that photo, which I have in two parts also, but have not yet scanned.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 10:02 PM

Taz thank you very much for this. We must remain cautious but it is certainly looking like the LeChelle photos are 425/17. If so they were possibly taken immediately after converting the original cross fields to the narrow type.

I will contact Allan Toelle and find out if he has evidence of red under the black stencilling of the /17. If so this may close another chapter in the history of this aircraft.

Langdon

CWatson · 13 June 2006, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

I just made a 2400 dpi scan (500MB) of a first copy print of photo #95 from Alex Imrie's Triplane book. The WN I read from the scan and using my thread counting loupe on the 4.5"x6.5" print is 2103, which equates to Dr.I 477/17, as Alex stated in his book. My print says the original is in Ed Ferko's UTD collection. It would be easy to misread the WN as 2112 without careful examination. The photo Dan-San references from Alex' German Fighter Units June 1917-1918 is also contained in two parts in Greg VanWyngarden's von Richthofen's Flying Circus photos 48 and 49. Photo #95 in Triplanes shows a line-up of Jasta 11 Dr.Is in the background (Steinhauser's Dr.I is easlily identifiable on the left) with no aircraft except 477/17 having had their fuselage or rudder crosses converted to Balkenkreuz standard. The photo Dan-San refers to was obviously taken at a different time and from a different camera location. It shows a line-up of Jasta 6 Dr.Is on the right and a more random placement of Dr.Is, some from Jasta 11, on the left. All the Dr.Is in this photo have had their fuselage and rudder crosses converted to Balkenkreuz standard. This conversion takes time. In the background of the aircraft on the left (photo #49 in Greg's book) a Triplane top wing only is visible which has been overpainted (red presumably) and could be 477/17, 425/17, 127/17 or 152/17. Nothing conclusive can be determined from that photo, which I have in two parts also, but have not yet scanned.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Well Taz if you can make out the werke number that ends the big debate, and if you have the two part photo and plan on scanning it I would like to see it. I thought I had "Von Richthofen's Flying Circus" , I have "Richthofen's Circus" by Greg VanWyngarden and it does not appear to have the photo mention by you and Dan in it. It does however contain the picture you confirmed to show 477/17 but it appears to have a swastika marked plane on the left side of the picture, not Steinhauser's.

Thanks again,
CWatson

Dave_Watts · 13 June 2006, 10:29 PM

Hi all,

CWatson,

I believe the rudder on 425/17 at the time it was shot down was all white with no under coating of red. You're point is well taken if one could access the original rudder fabric as taken from the wreckage of 425/17 they could have it specially photographed and see if there were any earlier form of cross underneath. I see three outcomes from the testing;

1. If the earlier forms were underneath but without the red outline, this would point us in the direction of this aircraft NOT being the all red aircraft at Lechelle.

2. If there were no earlier forms underneath, this tells us it came from the factory with the late form or the rudder had been replaced in the field.

3. If the form of the cross and overpainted outline as seen on the Lechelle shows up underneath, this would be evidence this very well may be one and the same aircraft.

Taz,

If you could post images of what you are writing about it would make it much simplier to follow, and not all of us have your reference library. Even poor quality images help to make the point.

First off, I believe this is the aircraft Taz referred to as 477/17 from its werks number underneath the top wing.

Not that there are cans of paint on either side of the aircraft indicating the crosses have just been overpainted or they are in the process of overpainting other areas on the aircraft.

Here is a poor scan that may be of interest.

Leaman reports the nearest aircraft as being 477/17.

The next two images are the same, but the contrast difference allows you to see information in both of them.

It is reported by Ferko that the nearest aircraft is either 152/17 or 425/17.
Leaman states the fourth plane is MvR's and most likely 425/17.

I hope these images are of help. All via Ferko/UTD.

Best,
Dave W.

Dave_Watts · 13 June 2006, 10:41 PM

Hi all,

I'm a bit lost on this new input of Hemer's Dr.I. What are you guys saying? It is 477/17, it's not?

Here is a scan showing Hemer's plane and identified by Leaman as Hemer's 595/17.

Best,
Dave W.

CWatson · 13 June 2006, 10:49 PM

Well Dave after Taz's post the rudder really is now moot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Hi all,

CWatson,

I believe the rudder on 425/17 at the time it was shot down was all white with no under coating of red. You're point is well taken if one could access the original rudder fabric as taken from the wreckage of 425/17 they could have it specially photographed and see if there were any earlier form of cross underneath. I see three outcomes from the testing;

1. If the earlier forms were underneath but without the red outline, this would point us in the direction of this aircraft NOT being the all red aircraft at Lechelle.

2. If there were no earlier forms underneath, this tells us it came from the factory with the late form or the rudder had been replaced in the field.

3. If the form of the cross and overpainted outline as seen on the Lechelle shows up underneath, this would be evidence this very well may be one and the same aircraft.

I understood Taz, I just lack one of the referance books he mentioned

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Taz,

If you could post images of what you are writing about it would make it much simplier to follow, and not all of us have your reference library. Even poor quality images help to make the point.

I agree, I understood that to be the picture Taz mention, I was just pointing out I did not see Steinhauser's plane but the swastika marked one that may have been flown by Monington(sp?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

First off, I believe this is the aircraft Taz referred to as 477/17 from its werks number underneath the top wing.

Not that there are cans of paint on either side of the aircraft indicating the crosses have just been overpainted or they are in the process of overpainting other areas on the aircraft.
I hope these images are of help. All via Ferko/UTD.

Best,
Dave W.

Man now we got to find a piece of Voss's cowl

.

CWatson

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 10:56 PM

Dave,

The nearest aircraft in that last of your photos does not look like 425/17 to me. It is not fitted with an Axial propeller. Could it be 146/17? I think I have also seen a photo of 152/17 with this type of prop, although most photos show it with an axial.

If the rudder cross can be examined I would expect its paint work to be similar to the other crosses in existance, the old paint would have blead through the newer coat so it should be visible.

Langdon