True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17 - Page 9

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Hi all,

I'm a bit lost on this new input of Hemer's Dr.I. What are you guys saying? It is 477/17, it's not?

Best,
Dave W.

Dave,

The first is 477/17 the photo below that has been mixed up as it looks similar.

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 11:10 PM

For those interested here is the rudder photo.

Ed Ferco

CWatson · 13 June 2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Hi all,

I'm a bit lost on this new input of Hemer's Dr.I. What are you guys saying? It is 477/17, it's not?

Here is a scan showing Hemer's plane and identified by Leaman as Hemer's 595/17.

Best,
Dave W.

Dave W.

I mentioned Hemer because back on post #60 of this thread you posted a picture that Leaman had stated was 425/17. In post #63 of this thread Langdon explained to us why it was NOT 425/17. I happened to notice there was a thread going on about Hemer's Dr1 on the forum also and it had a clearer and more detailed version of the picture you posted and provided a link thinking you would be interested. Link below;

http://theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25935

CWatson

Dave_Watts · 13 June 2006, 11:14 PM

Hi Langdon,

I think I get it now, the first photo is 477/17 and I am thinking this proves the "all red" Dr.I with the "^" blemish is now agreed to be 425/17?

As Taz, Dan-San, and CWatson stated this photo of 477/17 was taken at the same time as the "^" blemish aircraft being all red as it was seen in the background?

Langdon,

The second photo is the photo Carisella/Leaman had identified as 425/17. It is clearly Hemer's "wavy line" Dr.I, (Leaman identifies as 595/17), just at an earlier point in time. The same rectangular access panel is visible in different shots.

Taz,

I would like to see a scan of this photo where you can see both 477/17 and 425/17 in the same image! Taz.... Even if you can only see the top wing and it is taken at a later date. "Enquiring minds want to know."

Best,
Dave W.

Dave_Watts · 13 June 2006, 11:17 PM

Look at the time registers on the last postings, it's like we were having a conversation!

Thanks CWatson, Yes, your pointing out of the other thread helped out for sure!

Best,
Dave W.

CWatson · 13 June 2006, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Look at the time registers on the last postings, it's like we were having a conversation!

I thought we were

.

In case I forget, Dave, Langdon, and Taz, thanks for posting the pics, some that I had not seen and clearer versions of ones I have.

Thanks again,
CWatson

Langdon · 13 June 2006, 11:46 PM

Another interesting aspect has come out of this discussion. In an earlier thread discussing the same subject I was informed that the documents being passed off as original MvR combat reports were all fakes. Does anyone have proof concerning this statement? If these documents are fake then how do we attribute which aircraft was flown during engagements? I sincerely hope they are not fake, they seem remarkable accurate concerning the description of the aircraft flown.

Taz · 14 June 2006, 07:30 AM

Langdon, CW, Dave- Will try and post the images of the WN and the two part image from Fighter Units. CW, if you have Greg's Albatros Productions book, photo number 49 is the left side of a one piece panoramic photo in Imrie's Units book and number 48 is the right side (Jasta 6 Dr.Is) of this photo. It does not clearly show 425/17 and 477/17 I believe, just a bunch of Dr.Is in the distance and one overpainted Dr.I top wing which could be from any of 4 or 5 aircraft.

The Hemer aircraft was a real distraction, so I ignored it. It has a Jasta 6 maintenance panel on it so could not be a Jasta 11 aircraft at all, especially not 425/17 or 477/17. My mistake on Steinhauser, at 11:00 pm his X marking became a Hakenkreuz in my mind.

Just to be perfectly honest, Peter Grosz has the red Lechelle aircraft identified as 477/17 in his files and the aircraft underwing marking I read as WN 2103, Peter read as WN 2112, which equates to Dr.I 486/17. Paul Leaman used Peter's identifications in his book and they are the ones Dan-San quotes. It is also the source of Paul's listing 486/17 as a Jasta 11 aircraft. I am confident in my reading of WN 2103, but am trying to be completely transparent about the sources for the data everyone is using. Alex Imrie was also using a first copy print as well when he identified WN 2103, Dr.I 477/17, in his Triplane book photo #95. Ferko (who had the original print), Imrie, Ray Rimell, and Greg VanWyngarden come down on the side of the red Lechelle Dr.I with the "V" marking being 425/17. Peter Grosz, Paul Leaman, and Dan-San have it as 477/17. I read WN 2103, so will side with the first group.

"Just the facts, Ma'am."

Taz
Terry Phillips

Taz · 14 June 2006, 11:28 AM

One more reference. The panoramic photo in Imrie's Fighter Units is also contained in Paul Leaman's Dr.I book on pages 154 and 155. On page 155 is the view Dan-San references with an officer scanning with tripod mounted binoculars, a Jasta 6 Dr.I in the foreground, and Jasta 11 Dr.Is in the background. On page 154 is the Jasta 6 line-up which is the right side of the panoramic original. In fact, if you look at the left side of the Jasta 6 line-up photo, you can see the leg of the binocular tripod. Just so everybody has a chance to have a look at the photo Dan-San is referencing in his earlier post.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Langdon · 14 June 2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

Langdon, CW, Dave- Will try and post the images of the WN and the two part image from Fighter Units. CW, if you have Greg's Albatros Productions book, photo number 49 is the left side of a one piece panoramic photo in Imrie's Units book and number 48 is the right side (Jasta 6 Dr.Is) of this photo. It does not clearly show 425/17 and 477/17 I believe, just a bunch of Dr.Is in the distance and one overpainted Dr.I top wing which could be from any of 4 or 5 aircraft.

The Hemer aircraft was a real distraction, so I ignored it. It has a Jasta 6 maintenance panel on it so could not be a Jasta 11 aircraft at all, especially not 425/17 or 477/17. My mistake on Steinhauser, at 11:00 pm his X marking became a Hakenkreuz in my mind.

Just to be perfectly honest, Peter Grosz has the red Lechelle aircraft identified as 477/17 in his files and the aircraft underwing marking I read as WN 2103, Peter read as WN 2112, which equates to Dr.I 486/17. Paul Leaman used Peter's identifications in his book and they are the ones Dan-San quotes. It is also the source of Paul's listing 486/17 as a Jasta 11 aircraft. I am confident in my reading of WN 2103, but am trying to be completely transparent about the sources for the data everyone is using. Alex Imrie was also using a first copy print as well when he identified WN 2103, Dr.I 477/17, in his Triplane book photo #95. Ferko (who had the original print), Imrie, Ray Rimell, and Greg VanWyngarden come down on the side of the red Lechelle Dr.I with the "V" marking being 425/17. Peter Grosz, Paul Leaman, and Dan-San have it as 477/17. I read WN 2103, so will side with the first group.

"Just the facts, Ma'am."

Taz
Terry Phillips

Taz,

I appreciate what you are saying. This identification has gone back and forth for many years and way back the LeChelle photos were even thought to be of a silk covered Dr.I. It's always good to view these things with an open mind and plenty of enthusiasm and I believe we have done well here.

Unfortunatey in Leaman's book he goes through all the confusion we have seen here. He has 477/17 on page 133 for the quarter front on LeChelle photo with the blemish but on page 132 he shows the same aircraft with latter style cross as 425/17 as does the art work and then he has the Hemmer aircraft inset also as 425/17 so there has been a lot of confusion over these images.

You mention above the large access door on the Hemmer aircraft as being a feature of Jasta 6 and not of Jasta 11, what do you make of the photo showing

LvR standing in the cockpit of a Dr.I, the photo is taken close in with the camera positioned just off the end of the wing span? This aircraft had the same style access door.

Langdon