True color of MVR Fokker Dr1 425/17

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Hello Mates,
I need a little help here with the painting of my Fokker Dr1.425/17.
What shade of red was on this 425/17 ?
I was told to use a Testors dark red #1204 then use a flat coat.But to me that looks a little too dark.So i thought i go on here at the Aerodrome where the experts are and find out what really is the true red color of this 425/17.
Also did any of the streaking show through the red paint of MVR 425/17?
Any info will help.
Thanks,
JP

[Yeoman]

But Baron dear fellow, surely you must know the colour of your own aeroplane!

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Red Baron Returns:
Dull dark red, not glossy!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Langdon]

Red Baron Returns,

I'm not sure if you want to see the original colour or know of a modern equivalent but hopefully this photo of original fabric in the Australian War Memorial will help.



Allan Teolle has conducted a thorough study of the port side fuselage cross at the RCMI in Toronto as well as a number of other pieces including an aluminium sample (red directly over the aluminium). A conclusion of his is that no streaky camouflage was ever applied although it has its normal under surface blue. It seems that this aircraft was built specifically for MvR.

My speculation is that on delivery it would have been red on all of its upper surfaces with standard stencilling and national markings (large cross fields) with blue under surfaces returning 20mm over the upper surfaces.

Langdon

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Langdon

Red Baron Returns,

Allan Teolle has conducted a thorough study of the port side fuselage cross at the RCMI in Toronto as well as a number of other pieces including an aluminium sample (red directly over the aluminium). A conclusion of his is that no streaky camouflage was ever applied although it has its normal under surface blue. It seems that this aircraft was built specifically for MvR.

My speculation is that on delivery it would have been red on all of its upper surfaces with standard stencilling and national markings (large cross fields) with blue under surfaces returning 20mm over the upper surfaces.

Langdon

Langdon,

Couple questions about your observations. Since Mr.Teolle's study was on the crossfields and other pieces, would any factory standard Dr.1s have streaks under the crossfields? Do you know what area on of the other pieces had come from, were any from the sides and tops or only areas that would not have streaking like the bottom surfaces of crossfields? Some pictures you posted here recently show the inner side of some material that showed green pigment that had soaked through and coated the inner surfaces, was it concluded this was not from the olive green dripping down? Is it known if the red paint used on the undersurface was the same color or mixture as the red paint as used on the sides and top? The reason asked the last question is I have heard red was hard to get and if that is so what would the chances of the paint used underneath being the same color or brand.

Looking at photos of the 425/17 materials do make it look like at one time it was red with white crossfield too but I can not tell if it came factory like that.

Originally Posted by RED BARON RETURNS

Hello Mates,
I need a little help here with the painting of my Fokker Dr1.425/17.
What shade of red was on this 425/17 ?
I was told to use a Testors dark red #1204 then use a flat coat.But to me that looks a little too dark.So i thought i go on here at the Aerodrome where the experts are and find out what really is the true red color of this 425/17.
Also did any of the streaking show through the red paint of MVR 425/17?
Any info will help.
Thanks,
JP

JP,

I used Testor's 1204 on a 1/48 DML Dr.1. I do not think the color appears to dark.

CWatson

[Langdon]

CWatson,

The observations were Allan Toelle's not mine and they were conducted on eight pieces of original fabric and one piece of aluminium. None of the pieces contained upper surface camouflage, only red over CDL ( the aluminium was only painted with red) even though they were studied microscopically. There were however clear traces of under surface blue.


It is hard to see in this photo but the lower longeron has a 20mm return of blue under surface camouflage which is very clear in a high resolution image.

The port side cross covers a greater area than the cross field. Allan assures me that great care went into his observation.

"We eagerly anticipated finding evidence of the streaked camouflage on both sides of the cross-field of the RCMI specimen. We anticipated that the camouflaged areas would correspond to the areas of darkened red paint. However, careful examination under the microscope failed to reveal any coating material other than the clear dope and red, white, black, and blue paint mentioned above. There is no streaked camouflage present anywhere on the RCMI specimen!"

I do not know where the other samples came from, I know one is owned by - or was - Dan-San Abbott, and the aluminium piece would have been upper surface otherwise you would expect under surface blue as it was applied to the fabric from those locations. I have also heard that the piece discovered by Alex Imrie in the IWM, from around the air intake (including the werks number and datum line) has no streaky camouflage under the red.

You are correct I did post the picture showing the rear side of the lower wing cross which is stained by green paint, at that stage I thought the aircraft must have been painted normally when it left the factory, it was only after I contacted Allan Toelle that I learnt otherwise.

Allan's study (partly published in Aero magazine I think) discovered that the red paint was made from Mercuric Sulfide extended with Barytes.

Langdon

[CWatson]

Langdon,

Thanks for clearing that up. What through me off some was the thinking that it was red with blue under surfaces, that is one combo I had never considered.

CWatson

[Langdon]

Yes it's an interesting scheme. I doubt if anyone has tried this one before. I imagine MvR would not have been happy with a camouflaged underbelly as many of his claims were probably confirmed from ground observation.

My speculation is that the aircraft arrived as I have described but at sometime after the under surface, wooden wing struts and cross fields were over painted so that the aircraft looked the way the aircraft does in the LeChelle photos, as you know the aircraft then underwent further modifications to its national markings. As I say this is speculation but Allan Toelle's work is fact.


Langdon

[RED BARON RETURNS]

Well how does this look for a dark red.It's the #1204 Testors.
It seems lighter outside when the light hits the Fokker but inside it looks like a dark cherry.
Thanks for the info to Dan-san,Langdon and CWatson.
JP

[cfgray]

Hi, All,
Has anyone attempted to "map" digital images of the extant MvR Dr.I 425/17 fabric onto a 3-view or a 3D digital Dr.I? Has anyone compiled a set of images of all the extant fabric?
Best,
cfgray