I Need Color Interpretation help

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

I would like to hear the opinions of our photo interpretation experts out there. I am not well-versed on USAS aircraft. Here is a photo of a SPAD XIII of the 139th Aero Squadron, named "LIL JO".


"Li'l Jo" was the name for a dice throw of four in the popular game of craps ("Little Joe from Kokomo", I believe). The pilot has decorated his aircraft with the name and a couple of dice, just beneath the cockpit. We know that the Roman god Mercury insignia of the 139th was white with black outlines, and that the individual number '4" on the fuselage was probably red, based on numbers used on the unit's earlier SPAD VIIs. What I'd like to know is, what do you think the color of the dice insignia was?

Thanks for your input,

Greg VanWyngarden

[Gregvan]

Here's a close-up of the dice insignia:



So what do you think?

Greg

[jtisch]

Hi Greg,

I am not a color expert, but aren't craps dice usually red? I am not much of a gambler, but my sister-in-law is and every time we are in a casino it seems to me the dice were red. I don't know how far this goes back, but the GeeBee R-series in '32-33 also had dice, in red, on them. The tonal values seem close although it is the dice are in the sun, while the red 4 seems to be in the shade.

Good Luck!

J

[Cigogne]

Greg,

Have you asked Alan Toelle? He would probably know.

[StephenLawson]

I would say red base colour with white spots. The 90th Aero used a similar symbol of red dice, but with they read seven.

[silverback]

Until 1880 (or so) dice were made of natural materials such as ivory, bone or antler. With the development of durable plastics in the late 1800s, dice were produced in celluloid and bakelite. Celluloid was a good mimic for ivory, while bakelite could be molded in nearly any color. The red color of dice came about when transparent pyroxylin, and later, acetate, became widely available (harder to hide a weight in a transparent die) and red proved to be one of the few colors compatible with these plastics.
Red dice have been a mainstay of "real" gambling for quite some time, so, a scheme of red with white spots would be a safe bet.

Phil - Livin' in a gamblin' town

[Gregvan]

Hi Everyone,

I would REALLY like to belatedly thanks everyone for their generous responses. I appreciate all the input.

However, I'm afraid I was not entirely truthful when I started this thread. The fellow in the photo is Dallas Darling, a mechanic with the 139th Aero Squadron who serviced SPAD XIII 15216 No. 4, "LIL JO".His usual pilot was Lt. John Bennet. About 17 years ago I had the great privilege of meeting and interviewing Dallas Darling in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was still quite sprightly and I treasure this meeting as one of my great experiences. He had also sent a taped memoir to Alan Toelle, and I used that and other interviews as the basis of an article in OtF.

Anyway, when the "LIL JO" Spad was retired on 15 December 1918, Dallas cut the dice and "LIL JO" emblems off of both sides of the SPAD. His pilot Bennet got one of them and he kept the other - I was privileged to hold the framed fabric piece in my hands and examine it. Dallas donated all of his memorabilia, including the fabric piece, to the San Diego Aerospace Museum in San Diego before he passed away.

I first saw the fabric piece AFTER I had viewed the photos of the plane. I was very surprised to see the actual colors. Here it is:



I never would have guessed that the dice were black.

I started this whole thing to try to demonstrate just how difficult it is to judge colors accurately from a black and white orthochromatic photo. Vagaries in sublight, exposure, shadow, pigment, and weathering can all make this a very risky business. What looks 'black' in one photo might look much lighter in another, and so on and on.

Just a little experiment I thought I'd try. Thanks again to everyone.

Greg

[FlyXwire]

Hi Gregvan,

The dice bodies look insignia blue on my PC.

Must be my particular graphics card/monitor settings.

[EricGoedkoop]

Greg, you're incorrigible.

[Ross_Moorhouse]

What does my sig say ???