Udet's "DDN!!" Color Scheme Vote

[StephenLawson]

Hello Dan, I am glad to see you posting again. You are too dear to lose take care. All the best from a mile above sea level.
Very best repects Stephen

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

Dan, I'm glad you're out of danger and on the mend. Very best wishes to you and Patti.

I have avoided posting in this thread (even READING it) because I'm tired of the debate ad nauseam over this aircraft. My opinions on it are pretty well known. Furthermore, this D.VII was only flown for a short time, and there's only one readily available clear photo of the thing, and most of it is obscured. As Dan-San says, he "will not argue the issue", so what's the point? A 'vote' by the forumites will only determine what's the most popular interpretation, not the most historically accurate. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Dan, I don't think I EVER posted the photo which you describe. However, it was published in my JG I book for all the world to see. I must first thank Wouter Warmoes for allowing me to use a copy of his original photo. I must also thank Manfred Thiemeyer for conclusively identifying the pilot as Udet's very good Jasta 4 friend Heinrich 'Heinz' Drekmann, and for other information. Drekmann was born in the Hanseatic League city of Hamburg, and the emblem of the cog (German 'Kogge') was emblematic of the league. I don't know the color, but Drekmann's D.VII fuselage was obviously overpainted. The Hanseatic colors were red and white. However, having TWO red D.VIIs in Jasta 4 would have made victory confirmation difficult, so perhaps it was black - the Staffel color. Udet wrote that when he finally obtained the first two BMW D.VIIs from Jasta 11 for Jasta 4, he took one and gave the other to Drekmann - and the two flew many patrols together until Drekmann's death on 30 July 1918. I suspect this is a photo of those two BMW D.VIIs. In spite of the glare on the top wing of Udet's aircraft, close inspection of the original confirms that tht top wing seen here was NOT striped. Since Dan-San asked, here it is, with thanks to Wouter and Manfred. As you can see, it yields absolutely NO information on the nose color of either aircraft because both noses are obscured or out of frame:



I'm not going to get in an argument with anyone over the color of the stripes on 'DDN". I feel they were black and white, but that's only my opinion. These diagonal stripes were a common ploy to attempt to set up an optical illusion to confuse the aim of a pursuer. Every other known example of this (Mai's D.VII, Neckel's D.VII, Kirschstein's Dr.I and both of his D.VIIs) all employed black and white stripes. Udet had experience flying Kirschstein's black and white Dr.I 586/17. Furthermore, one seldom-mentioned point, which is ENTIRELY a speculation on my part. Before he came to JG I, Udet had long flown with Jasta 37. What was the unit marking of that unit? A diagonally black/white striped tailplane and elevator. When Udet took command of the unit he added a BLACK fuselage as an additional marking. As Dan knows, Jasta commanders often employed part of the unit color/marking of their old unit on their new aircraft when they took over a new unit. Under Udet's command, the D.VIIs of Jasta 4 displayed black noses, struts and wheel covers (of course, a black wound ribbon had formerly been the marking applied to their Albatrosse and Pfalz, so he was continuing the 'black' tradition). So perhaps (I know it's a stretch) the stripes on the top wing of DDN were also a bit of a reference to his former Jasta 37 markings. Dr. Glen K. Merrill even feels that the fuselage and tail of DDN was painted black, not red. This is one of those controversies that will probably never be settled, like Voss' "yellow" cowling...

By the way, I doubt that Udet's "other" Jasta 4 triplane (593/17, according to Imrie) had any red on it. It had a camouflaged fuselage and wings, with a white chevron on the tailplane. His "LO!" emblem was chalked or painted in white in a small "thumbnail" sketch just aft of the cockpit, and it may have been painted in large format aft of that. The photos of this Dr.I in the Rouselle album just don't clarify this issue.

That's all I'll say on this topic. Best wishes to all.

Greg

[gipsymoth236k]

Greg,

Ah! MORE answers to long-term questions ARE reveled here in this important new photo, like the exact styling of the "LO!" motif!

I for one want to thank you so very much for showing us this photo, and thank you Dan-San for asking Greg to show it, as this communal sharing truly follows the spirit of this Forum by one providing all that one can about these interesting topics. Eventually, through this joint effort, much more historic significance comes to surface allowing more and more truth to quench our thirst for finding the treasure trove of accurate data.

Best regards to BOTH of you!

Gary Sewall

[RED BARON RETURNS]

I have only seen a few of Udet's Planes.
But i'm sticking to my gut feeling on this one.
After all the things you mates have taught me the last year on all kinds of paint colors and so fourth.
I think Dan-San is right on this one it's red.
Now i have some catching up to do on the forum i have not been here in a while.
Glad to see you all again and to Dan-San it's good to see you back too.
JEP

[Langdon]

Gentlemen,

I know very little about the unit markings or aircraft flown by Udet so please bear this in mind but I remember a couple of years ago Achim Engels was given a collection of pieces from a D.VII aircraft that it was thought Udet had crash landed at the airfield Neu-Ruppin in August 1918, the aircraft was OAW built D.VII 6444/18 and along with the collection of fabric and instrument panel placards was a cartoon of the crash landing, apparently drawn by Udet and linking him to that aircraft. Possibly of interest is the sample of fabric from the tailplane, it was over-painted red.

I hope this helps.

Langdon

[papermache]

Dan-San,
A good historian always qualifies claims of factuality with words like "...according to my best research". For an esteemed historian like yourself to use words like "it WAS this way" or "it WAS such a color" with no qualifiers, you do yourself and the art of historical research a disservice. You stated your opinion. Your opinion carries a lot of weight (and rightly so), but it is still an opinion. Hard factual evidence in the case of "DDN's" nose color or stripe color is lacking, so conjecture and opinion rule. Don't lose credibility by claiming something as fact that can't be backed up.

papermache

[JohnFitz]

Just wondering what color his flying suit was since it looks identical in color (black) to the fuselage? Wishing good health to all!

[gipsymoth236k]

Do I see NO white paint on the top rear fuselage turtledeck area above the "LO!" marking?

Regards, Gary Sewall

[Taz]

Gary- Not DDN which was long gone by the time Udet got the two BMW powered aircraft. Dan-San agreed, based on a really poor image in a video (Hitlers's Generals), that DDN did not have a white turtle deck. Cicogne is still trying techniques to see if he can improve that video image.

Red fuselage, black fuselage, red with black nose, red and white stripes or black and white stripes? Who knows? Steve Anderson's painting of the aircraft is mine, so you know how I voted. I have an original photo of an Udet D.VII with no red on it at all, if I remember correctly. Will have to dig it out. Greg has a copy and maybe he can post it. Memory fades on this one since it has been around the track so many times.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[gipsymoth236k]

Ah, thanks for the clear-up Taz.

I am going to work on a re-do of this image to update the "DDN!!" scheme to today's opinion.

Regards, Gary Sewall