Udet's "DDN!!" Color Scheme Vote

[Taz]

Gary- Pretty aircraft, regardless of what color scheme you choose. The one universal in Udet's JG I aircraft seems to be the chevron on the tail. Jörg Mückler published a book in German which contains a photo of Udet's Jasta 11 Dr.I, 149/17 I think, which also had the chevron. The photo is an aerial view of Jasta 11 aircraft and the chevroned Dr.I is clearly visible along with MvR's and Weiss' Dr.Is.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Langdon

Gentlemen,

I know very little about the unit markings or aircraft flown by Udet so please bear this in mind but I remember a couple of years ago Achim Engels was given a collection of pieces from a D.VII aircraft that it was thought Udet had crash landed at the airfield Neu-Ruppin in August 1918, the aircraft was OAW built D.VII 6444/18 and along with the collection of fabric and instrument panel placards was a cartoon of the crash landing, apparently drawn by Udet and linking him to that aircraft. Possibly of interest is the sample of fabric from the tailplane, it was over-painted red.

I hope this helps.

Langdon

Any comments on this aircraft!!!

[josef scott]

...a different idea (extending Greg's observations).

I've never fully accepted the idea that DDN! was red at all. That being said, I did the red/black nose version on my DVII kit and I do like the look of it.

HOWEVER, how about this scenario:

In Udet's previous command in Jasta 37, he used an all-black Albatros with white markings. When moving into his new command in Jasta 4, he re-adopts this scheme. Reasoning:
1.previous use as a Jasta commander,
2.black is unit colour,
3.extends use of Kirschstein's b/w motif on upper wing on DDN!

After the loss of DDN! (end of June) and "wangling" of BMW DVII's, He continues to use an all-black scheme, while his wingman and close friend Drekmann adopts the red-and-white Hanseatic colours and sign of his native land.

When Drekmann falls in combat (end of July), Udet adopts his red-and-white colours for all his subsequent aircraft in tribute to his dear friend.

There was certainly a precedent for such sentimentality. Von Schleich painted all his aircraft black for similar reasons. I'm convinced Josef Mai striped his DVII to memorialize the loss of his friend Fritz Rumey.

Anyway, some food for thought.

[baldeagle]

The photo of Udet by the tail of DDN clearly shows through the crook in his right arm a thin white stripe adjacent to the left longeron, which looks like part of the common J.4 marking of black and white longeron stripes. I vote for black nose, black and white longeron markings, black horizontal tail with chevron, and black and white wing stripes, similar to the a/c in the line up shot said to be taken at Bernes airfield in August 1918. Why would he go from a red marked machine (if DDN was) back to a black and white one and then back to red again?

[Taz]

baldeagle- Would make you wonder why he painted his SSW D.III all red then. Documented in contemporary sources. Just to be different? Plus in his combat reports of Sept 1918 in Mein Fliegerleben, he makes numerous references to "die rote Maschine" or red machine he was flying. The report states Fokker D.VII 4253 Rumpf rot, an den beiden Rumpfseiten Buchstaben "LO". Rear red, on both rear sides bookmarked "LO".

I just looked at the white whatever it is in the crook of Udet's right arm using a 10 power loupe on the original photo in Mein Fliegerleben and there is not a straight edge on it on either side so it is certainly no stripe. Plus it extends all the way to the canvas cover on the propeller, way past where the longeron stripes would extend if it were one. See the analysis in Albatros Publications' Fokker D.VII Anthology 2 for a more complete analysis. That white whatever it is is also why Dan-San Abbott originally thought the turtle deck was white until he saw photographic evidence otherwise.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
I have been wracking my mind on when I agreed the turtle deck was all red?
Was this in a posting? I do not agree the turtledeck was all red. It is at least white on the edges. The 3/4 right-front view indicates the turtledeck was all white!
All of you who have jumped on the band wagon for black, are doing so with no substantiating evidence. The same photo referenced above after some considerable effort to enhance the photo have come up with nothing. the photo of DDN on the video, I have not seen, other than a thumbnail on one of the postings, however, I would like to see an enlargement.
I would like to know the origin of the serial number Dr.I 149/17 attributed to Udet. Is there a photo of the machine that show the entire auircraft. There are no numbers visible in any photo of the machine that I have seen. This includes the Grosz Archiv and the Ferko collection. I have seen some of the albums in the Grosz Archiv, but none in the Ferko collection. This also applies to striped triplane, where did that serial number come from? None are visible anywhere on any of the photos I have seen. I suspect a crystal ball??
All the aircraft that Udet flew in Jasta 4 that there is a record of, were red.
This is in part is confirmed in combat reports or his biographhy, Mein Fliegerleben The only aluminum and black, black, and black and white aircraft Udet flew were in Jasta 37, not in Jasta 11 or Jasta 4.
Blue skies,
Dan

[Langdon]

Still nobody wants to comment on the possible Udet relics owned by Achim Engels? It has been a long time since I read Udet's book, can anyone remember if he mentions crashing a D.VII during August 1918? If this aircraft OAW D.VII 6444/18 is one of the aircraft you are referring to then it certainly had a red over-painted stabiliser. I would have thought this was possible source material but it doesn't rate a comment!

Langdon

[Gregvan]

Dan-San,

If you'll read the article on this website, "How I shot down 62 Planes" by Udet, you'll see where the serial 149/17 came from for one of the triplanes flown by Udet in Jasta 11. Canadian Journalist David B. Rogers interviewed Udet in 1930 or 1931 in hisapartment at 14 Hohenzollernstrasse in Berlin. He wrote the article "Presenting Udet - Eagle of Germany" and the accompanying piece (a translation and transcription of Udet's own words) which appears on this website, for the May 1931 issue of "Fawcett's Battle Stories" (Volume 8 No. 45). Rogers also wrote an article about Udet's 10th victory over Canadian Robert Edward Taylor for the "Toronto Star", which is detailed in Stew Taylor's article in OtF, Volume 18 #3. I point this out to assure you that Rogers was a legitimate journalist. During the interview, Rogers viewed Udet's photo albums and Udet got out "a folder that was bulging with official looking documents" which contained his combat reports.

In the "Fawcett's Battle Stories" article, Udet describes his 22nd victory over the Camel of Lt. C.R. Maasdorp, on 18 March 1918. Udet says, "I had my Fokker DR-1 - 149/17." I can only presume he was quoting his combat report, and I have no doubt as to the authenticity of this serial number for the Jasta 11 Dr.I Udet was flying on 18 March 1918. Elsewhere in the article, Udet quotes serial 4253 for the "red Fokker D7" he was flying on 8 August 1918, and Udet and Rogers certainly got that serial right.

I agree that there is no confirmed photo (that I'm aware of) that shows Udet's Dr.I (or Dr.Is) flown in Jasta 11 or their serial, save the close-up of Udet in the cockpit of a Dr.I (reportedly taken just after his stressful duel with Maasdorp) which appears in "Mein Fliegerleben". The Jörg Mückler photo which Taz refers to is an aerial shot which shows a Dr.I on Cappy airfield and it has a white chevron on the tailplane. Whether or not this was Udet's aircraft (or whether it was 149/17) we cannot say for sure, but the white chevron on the tail looks very similar to that which appeared on the tail of Udet's second Jasta 4 Dr.I (which Imrie says is 593/17) at Beugneux-Cramoiselle. There is another Mückler photo (unpublished) which was taken at Cappy on 2 May 1918. It shows a Jasta 11 Triplane with a white chevron on the fuselage and tailplane. Of course, Udet was on medical leave when this was taken, but it invites speculation that this may have been an old airplane of Udet's. But it's only speculation.

Greg

[JohnFitz]

And let us not overlook the red SSW D.III.

[Taz]

Dan-San- I make most of this stuff up...except occasionally. When you got a look at the photo in Hitler's Generals that I sent you, your comment, in writing somewhere, was the turtle deck may not have been white, but the fuselage was certainly all red and you could not see the darker nose. There is no white paint on the fuselage in the H.G. photo except LO!. We are regressing here. What is white in the crook of Udet's right arm is definitely not a stripe. It extends to places where there is not even any fuselage. Break out Mein Fliegerleben and look at it under magnification. The left side of that white whatever is completely irregular. Not a straight line in it on either side.

Greg and I had dug up a photo of 149/17 somewhere and discussed it in the past, along with a photo of one of the two white tailed (and maybe more white parts) Dr.Is crashed on the same day. Amazingly, I remembered the SN.

Greg- Thanks, I did not know the origin of the 149/17 SN. Too bad our Canadian friend did not copy Udet's albums. That would have been a wonderful thing.

Langdon- Enlighten me about Achim's artifacts. First I have heard of them.

Learn something new on this Forum every day. Apparently true for you , too, Dan-San since we both now know where 149/17 originated.

Taz
Terry Phillips