Navarre & Guynemer N11 help please..

rabu · 7 October 2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josef scott

Those are some fine shots. Thanks for pointing out the site. I hadn't run across it or those pics before.

I was researching Navare's red Bébé a while back as well. There is some conjecture that he may have had more than one all-red Nie11, although certainly N872 was an identifiable one.

First off, the Nieuports in pics 47, 97 and 98 appear to be Nie 16s (note headrest) and are definitely not N872. I would question whether the plane in pic 47 is Navarre's at all. Not sure whether it is overpainted or just in normal camouflage.

At this time many Nieuports carried no roundels on the upper surface of the top plane, but did have them on the under-sides of both top and bottom planes. This was the case with N872. There is a photo of this machine taken from the front in the old Harleyford "Aces of WWI" (I think that's the title) book.

Other photos of Navarre's all-red Nie11 (possibly N872) are around. Osprey's "Nieuport Aces of WW1" has a partial starboard side view.

I believe the consensus has been that the fuselage was red, with no paint on the cowling. The stitching forward of the cockpit has been carefully kept free of paint. Upper flying surfaces red, under-surfaces left CDL. There is a thin light-coloured edging around the flying surfaces as well, just as was done around the camouflage that was painted on some of them. Wheel covers appear CDL to me.

Note the gun mounted in front of the cockpit to fire through the propellor arc, unusual for this time. In photos 48 and 50, N872 seems to be missing its windscreen, to which Navarre had a round mirror attached.

Hope this helps. I know nothing about Guynemer's blue Bébé, although I believe it was discussed recently on a modelling thread.

Joseph: Thanks for all the excellent info. I'm doing the N11s and the N16s so both will appear in Phase II of OFF. I think the N16 you pointed out in photo #47 may have been Navarre's friend, Boileau's who was later KIA. I seem to remember some discussion on one of the boards that he too flew a red Nieup? Does anyone know about this? It sure looks like it could have been red, the fuselage and wings, and even the wheel covers all appear to be consistantly dark and it appears to have a fixed mount Lewis on the upper wing, but like you said, it might also be camo paint job.

Again, in shot #50, if you blow it up abit, it sure looks like there is an upper wing roundel on that left side, but I now understand that it is not ghosting through a cdl finish but was probably on the lower surface of the upper wing, and it would have also had lower wing under surface roundels?

Thanks again.

rabu · 7 October 2006, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by margaret smith

Hello Rabu! Please check this website www.navarre-jean.com and it shows pictures of all the NIeuports that Navarre flew plus it has some great pictures also!

Hi, MS: That was the site I was referring to with the photos I was asking about up above.
It is really a good site, I just wish I could speak French, the translation done by the computer has a lot to be desired!

Thanks,

rabu · 7 October 2006, 08:46 AM

Just want to thank you all for the input and really useful info. I had missed the link to the forum discussion on Karl's excellent blue horizon Guynemer N11, that will also be helpful, thanks GreenKnight.

I was looking around on that same Navarre website on the album pages (click) and noticed this photo of Boillot's N16 #935

(hope they don't mind my link) This looks like it could be the same one I pointed out as photo #47 (click here) It sure looks like it could be red? and it has lighter taped edges as does photo #47.

rabu · 7 October 2006, 09:33 AM

One final question, this plane is hanging in one of the museums and I have a lot of photos of it from the website. It has a rose on the side and here is a picture of it on that same Navarre site:

"Cdt of Rose in front of her (?) plane. B.Marcin collection"

Does any one know anymore about it?

Thanks,

margaret smith · 7 October 2006, 03:24 PM

Rabu, your'e right about the translation on that site-it's rough and some of it dosen't make sense. I'm dying to know what "Allons tant mieux" means. Maybe some of our French friends on the Forum can translate that for us.

JohnFitz · 7 October 2006, 08:34 PM

I believe that is the N11 of Capitaine Tricornot DeRose. It is displayed at the musee del'aire, Paris.

Gregvan · 7 October 2006, 09:13 PM

Hi,

Yes, the black/white photo posted by Rabu shows Commandant Tricornot de Rose with his famous Nieuport 11 bearing his personal rose insignia. The Nieuport 11 hanging in the Musee de l'Aire is painted to represent de Rose's aircraft, but it is not his original machine.

I have always thought that Boillot's Nieuport 16 #935 simply displayed the factory-applied green and brown camouflage on the upper surfaces, along with his white 'B" insignia.

Interestingly, in Bernard Klaeylé and Philippe Osché's marvelous book on "Guynemer, les Avions d'un As", there is a photo and a color profile of sous-lieutenant Bucquet's Nieupoprt 16 N 1386 of escadrille N3. According to the authors, it oo was painted red on the fuselage, upper wing surfaces and wheel covers. It also displayed a white stork emblem and white "5" on the aft fuselage.

Greg VanWyngarden

rabu · 7 October 2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFitz

I believe that is the N11 of Capitaine Tricornot DeRose. It is displayed at the musee del'aire, Paris.

Ahh.. OK, thanks John. I can't find the link for the museum anymore though, I wonder if they are just down or not on line anymore?

rabu · 7 October 2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi,

Yes, the black/white photo posted by Rabu shows Commandant Tricornot de Rose with his famous Nieuport 11 bearing his personal rose insignia. The Nieuport 11 hanging in the Musee de l'Aire is painted to represent de Rose's aircraft, but it is not his original machine.

I have always thought that Boillot's Nieuport 16 #935 simply displayed the factory-applied green and brown camouflage on the upper surfaces, along with his white 'B" insignia.

Interestingly, in Bernard Klaeylé and Philippe Osché's marvelous book on "Guynemer, les Avions d'un As", there is a photo and a color profile of sous-lieutenant Bucquet's Nieupoprt 16 N 1386 of escadrille N3. According to the authors, it oo was painted red on the fuselage, upper wing surfaces and wheel covers. It also displayed a white stork emblem and white "5" on the aft fuselage.

Greg VanWyngarden

Great name, Commandant Tricornot de Rose! Was he too with Escadrille N67?

I thought I had remembered that about Bucquet and a red Nieuport. So, it was a N16, #N 1386, but with Esc N3, not Esc N67 with Navarre?

Thanks for the info, Greg