Navarre & Guynemer N11 help please..

[rabu]

Does anyone have any info on the red Nieuport 11 that Jean Navarre flew while with Escadrille N67?

What dates was he flying the red N11?

Was the red on the main body top and sides, and tops of the upper and lower wings, while the under wings and body and wheel covers would have been unpainted cdl? ..or was the red just on the body alone?

If the top wing surfaces were painted red, were roundels on the top wing outlined to set off the outter red French roundel ring, or were they just omitted from the upper wing?

Tail number was N872 ?

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Similarly, Guynemer's blue Nieuport 11

What dates was he flying this plane?

A profile I saw looks like the whole plane was painted blue, except for the "V" wing struts.. is that correct?

On the side is "Le Vieux Charles" & tail # N856 ..correct?

I'm just doing skins for Over Flanders Fields and want to get these done right.
If any one has any other N11 schemes they would like done, please let me know, I'm doing the more well known ones, like Lufbery's camo version with the "RL" on the side and others in Esc Lafayette, Navarre's red white and blue striped one, Turenne's RWB shield/horn, Tarascon's "Zigomar"/rooster, Gavardie's chevron RWB one, Guynemer's cdl with "Vieux Charles III" on the side, ..basically, all the profiles in the Osprey Nieuport Aces book plus a few otheres I've found on the internet, but I'm looking for more N11 and N16 profiles or info to create the skins for them.

Thanks

[rabu]

I did searches on this forum and on line and could find no clear answers.

I did find a French site, The flotilla NR 67 (click here) on the Escadrille N67 & Navarre with some good photos. Would some of you, Dan San or others, who are good at identifying color reference from black and white photos comment?
In Photos 47, 48 and 50 it looks like the body, wheel covers, and wing tops were red, while struts, cowl, under wings were not painted, and zooming in on #47 I see no top roundels, but in photo #98 there clearly is..

On the zoomed in left wings of photo #50 you can clearly see the bottom wing roundrel under neath, and under the top wing it looks like the ghosting of the roundel on the top which would indicate the top wing was unpainted? The main body and wheels on this shot look clearly like they could have been red, to me.

Any comments?

If there isn't enough information from photos or descriptions, what do you all think would look best? All red, or just the fuselage, or?

Thanks,

[josef scott]

Those are some fine shots. Thanks for pointing out the site. I hadn't run across it or those pics before.

I was researching Navare's red Bébé a while back as well. There is some conjecture that he may have had more than one all-red Nie11, although certainly N872 was an identifiable one.

First off, the Nieuports in pics 47, 97 and 98 appear to be Nie 16s (note headrest) and are definitely not N872. I would question whether the plane in pic 47 is Navarre's at all. Not sure whether it is overpainted or just in normal camouflage.

At this time many Nieuports carried no roundels on the upper surface of the top plane, but did have them on the under-sides of both top and bottom planes. This was the case with N872. There is a photo of this machine taken from the front in the old Harleyford "Aces of WWI" (I think that's the title) book.

Other photos of Navarre's all-red Nie11 (possibly N872) are around. Osprey's "Nieuport Aces of WW1" has a partial starboard side view.

I believe the consensus has been that the fuselage was red, with no paint on the cowling. The stitching forward of the cockpit has been carefully kept free of paint. Upper flying surfaces red, under-surfaces left CDL. There is a thin light-coloured edging around the flying surfaces as well, just as was done around the camouflage that was painted on some of them. Wheel covers appear CDL to me.

Note the gun mounted in front of the cockpit to fire through the propellor arc, unusual for this time. In photos 48 and 50, N872 seems to be missing its windscreen, to which Navarre had a round mirror attached.

Hope this helps. I know nothing about Guynemer's blue Bébé, although I believe it was discussed recently on a modelling thread.

[EricGoedkoop]

Be careful here - you're looking at more than one aircraft.

I'm no expert but photos 47, 97 and 98 look like a Nie. 16 to me, not an 11. Note the headrest. 48 and 50 look like an 11.

Regarding the upper wing cockades - due to the small size of the Nieuport sesquiplanes' lower wings, it was common practice to also paint cockades on the underside of the top wing. Those on the lower wing were considered too small to be effective. Many 10s and 11s did not have cockades on the upper surface of the top wing. Early in the war, the primary purpose of national markings on aircraft was recogntion from the ground and the prevention of friendly fire.

[EricGoedkoop]

Well, looks like Mr. Scott beat me to it!

[josef scott]

Eric

Great minds...grate minds?

[EricGoedkoop]

Speaking for myself, the latter.

[greenknight]

This page on a site dedicated to Nieuports should be of interest.

http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/N_11.html

There are color depictions here of two of Navarre's N.11s including the mostly red one, and also of Guynemer's blue N.11.

Guynemer's blue N.11 was also discussed here recently:

Here is a bit of...fun

Note particularly the informative postings by Gregvan

[margaret smith]

Hello Rabu! Please check this website www.navarre-jean.com and it shows pictures of all the NIeuports that Navarre flew plus it has some great pictures also!

[josef scott]

WOW!

Margaret, thanks for reminding me of that site! They seem to have added alot to it since I last visited. Make sure not to miss the "photo album":

http://www.navarre-jean.com/album3.htm

Lots of pics of his (apparently) all-red Nie 16.

"Allons!...Tant mieux"