Black Flight Sopwith Triplane

[scooterjmuggs]

Hello All;

I am making a Sopwith Triplane. It will be from the famous Black Flight (probably Raymond Collishaw's plane). My question is which colour dope should the fuselage be, PC-10 or PC-12?

I am leaning towards the more brown PC-12 (Mr. Kit) as I believe most RNAS planes were doped in that colour, but I have seen so many colour profiles with a greenish tint.

What do you think.

scooterjmuggs

[mgtaylor]

PC12 A chocalate Khaki is correct for RNAS 1916 on.

"The most controversial British camouflage colors of WWI are probably PC10 (Top camouflage from 1916 on) and PC12 (RNAS top camouflage from 1916 on). Several studies on this topic have been published over recent years and it seems certain that the former color had a greenish hue, while the latter dope shade was more brown."

"MISTERKIT COLORS
WWI ACFT COLOR SERIES:

Dealing with World War I colours is not an easy task. It is very difficult to locate reliable, original fabric samples, and even when it is possible it is necessary to keep in mind that they are more than 80 years old and they probably suffered not only aging from time but also by weather.

In addition, the shade of paints supplied to factories and front line units or repairing depots frequently varied, as not all producers supplied exactly identical shades.

Moreover, the paints used during the Great War usually suffered badly from the natural elements, so that the modeller who wishes to reproduce a machine at the front could never be really sure about the real machine's true colour shade.

Of course, this is not to suggest that almost any colours will do, far from it, but, as experts usually say, it is useless to be too pedantic about World War I colour shades: the best which can be done is to supply the enthusiast with reliable and well researched shades, which not only can be applied to the model as they are, but which can also form the ideal basis from which to start to get one's favourite shade.

This is what we have strived to achieve with the WWI ACFT Color Series. MisterKit World War I ACFT colours are based on the best possible published references and on some of the actual original WWI fabric samples available. The collection can be easily mixed with other acrylic paints to get even more different varying shades, to suit every modeller's tastes."

Yours Mike
www.misterkitusa.com

Originally Posted by mgtaylor

"The most controversial British camouflage colors of WWI are probably PC10 (Top camouflage from 1916 on) and PC12 (RNAS top camouflage from 1916 on). Several studies on this topic have been published over recent years and it seems certain that the former color had a greenish hue, while the latter dope shade was more brown."

I would be cautious about making such an absolute assertion as "PC12 A chocolate Khaki is correct for RNAS 1916 on". Unfortunately such definite assertions can quickly become entrenched as definitive unless they are properly qualified, and even then they can take on a life of their own long after the original poster has moved on.

I'm aware that the matter is controversial, but given that aircraft were built by many contractors over many types it might be better say that current thinking is that "PC12 was used on RNAS machines as well as PC10". (Sopwith for example reportedly used one colour if they ran out of the other so there’s not really any certainty even when you know the maker)

Some years ago common thinking was that PC12 was more likely to be used on machines sent to the Middle East - this was certainly the case after September 1918 when the new schemes were formalised

The Tripes were unusual in that when sent to the Western Front they *may* have been finished in PC12 rather than the usual PC10. Sopwith-built machines for the RNAS including Tripes and some Camels seem to have often been specified as having a PC12 finish, but I would be uncomfortable about making that a general rule for all RNAS machines. For example Seaplanes and flying boats were described as been dark green which PC12 most definitely was not.

That said I would agree that the PC12 finish seems credible-to-likely for the Sopwith-built Triplanes. I’ve not seen the original sources but Camels did apparently have PC12 specified on the Sopwith drawings.

What Clayton and Shuttleworth used on the machines they built is not clear unless their specifications have survived – some of their drawings were help by Marshall’s in Gainsborough long after Clayton’s went out of business, but of course what used to be Marshall’s plant now houses a supermarket. I hope the remaining C&S records survived somewhere…

[StephenLawson]

scooterjmuggs; PC12 is the right choice. If your fortunate MikeW will weigh in here. You may want to read some of his past postings on the subject.

[MikeW]

The Sopwith "Finishing" Drawing for the Triplane specifies PC12. I cannot believe that they ignored their own drawings and used PC10. Similarly, their Camel "finishing" drawing specifies PC12.

As mentioned in posts above, Clayton & Shuttleworth also build the Triplane and Oakley built a small batch of 6. What these contractors used is not known, but the drawing sets supplied by Sopwith would have stated PC12.

With Camels, these were built mainly by contractors under War Office (not Admiralty) contracts and it seems most likely that non-Sopwith built Camels were finished in PC10.

In your case, you have a choice of three Triplanes, all named Black Maria:

N5490 - Sopwith Built
N5492 - Sopwith Built
N533 - Clayton & Shuttleworth built, fitted with two Vickers guns, other small visual differences to inspection panels.

So, you can model N5490 or N5492 in PC12, or N533 in PC12 (my choice) or PC10.

An alternative open to you is to take Collishaw's word for it and paint them greenish Khaki on top, sky blue underneath, scrub out the cockades on the top wings to make them less noticeable from above, leave off the large "C" behind the fuselage cockade, and omit the black on the fin and the wheel covers! During my years of research into Naval 10 I have found Collishaw to be a singularly unreliable source of information! To quote a well known Canadian aviation researcher who interviewed him several times "Colly was full of BS".


Mike

[Southside Bucky]

As Mike says, the Sopwith instructions stipulated PC12, but whichever they used I think it would be reasonably safe to say it tended toward the brown side rather than green.

As further weight to the argument:
The prototype N500, was sent to France in a clear dope finish, but a little later it was painted in it's camouflage scheme and given the nickname 'Brown Bread'.

Regards.

Bucky.

Originally Posted by MikeW

The Sopwith "Finishing" Drawing for the Triplane specifies PC12. I cannot believe that they ignored their own drawings and used PC10.

This I think is where at least part the controversy arises.

There have been strong suggestions by Rimmel and others that Sopwith's used the drawings as a guide rather than treating them as a fiat from above and that one may have been substituted for the other if stocks ran low. What I don't have is the source for this assertion - does anyone know where this came from?

Were the Clayton and Shuttleworth machines built entirely to Sopwith drawings? In some cases the contractor got a sample machine and a few drawings, rather than complete set of production documents.

For example many Short 184 drawings were got up by teams of contractor's drafstmen working from a sample machine and the resulting drawings were then shared among the various contractors.

That said I'm still going with PC12 as the proper finish for a Triplane, but I would like to understand the process of communicating technical data a bit better. This is a world far removed from sending your contractor detailed CAD files for each and every component - it seems the process back then was much more akin to building/construction work where the architect specifies the essentials and the contractor figures out exactly how to build the thing

Aidrian

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by Aidrian

"...This I think is where at least part the controversy arises. There have been strong suggestions by Rimmel and others...Aidrian

You mean R. Rimell?

[Terry_Crisp]

Gentlemen,
My impression of PE 12 is that it was brown but somewhat reddish. In all my reading, casual or serious inquiry I don't recall a single mention of reddishness in the color descriptions of Sopwith Triplanes. More often were references to chocolate or as mentioned Brown Bread for the battledress of the prototype or simply Brown. BtW, just finished AUSTRALIAN HAWK OVER THE WESTERN FRONT and recommend it highly.
My supposition is that the Navy was probably using one of the more brown and dark at that, editions of the varigated and inconsistent PC 10.
I do wish for a method of retrieving colors from those B/W photos but that might take some of the fun out.
Kind regards to all,
Terry

[MikeW]

Were the Clayton and Shuttleworth machines built entirely to Sopwith drawings? In some cases the contractor got a sample machine and a few drawings, rather than complete set of production documents.

N5421 was delivered from Sopwiths to Clayton & Shuttleworth for use as a Pattern circa the second week of November 1916 (can't remember exactly when, I'm at work).

N5350 was delivered from Clayton & Shuttleworth to the acceptance park on the 2nd December 1916.

There is no way that C&S could have made N5350 in that short time without a complete set of manufacturing drawings. Furthermore, they must have had the drawings well in advance of the pattern machine.

Later C&S machines were subtly different, having different inspection panels.


Regarding the documentation process, Sopwiths usually made a prototype, documentation being chalked outlines on the factory floor. If it flew successfully, it was then turned over to the drawing office to produce detailed manufacturing drawings.

Herbert Smith, the chief draftsman is often credited with designing the Sopwith Triplane. Sir TOM Sopwith was always very dismissive of this suggestion (which persists to this day) - he stated that he, Harry Hawker and Bert Sigrist designed the Triplane, Smith simply drew up their concept.