Q: On Udet's DR-1 ...

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by Intrepid

Hello all,

On my copy of Dan's drawing of Fokker Dr.I 586/17 , the Methuen codes he quotes are :

Dark Red , 11C8

Pale Turquoise , 24A3.

Dan notes these are approximates based on the study of photographs of this aircraft.

Hope this is of help.

Marlon Schultz

So it must be true then eh? Not only can we now be sure that it was red 'n blue, but we also know (well, sort of) what shade's as well!...Sheesh!

[RAGIII]

My opinion, and it should be noted this is just an opinion, is that DSA made a good "estimate" when no info was available reference Kirschteins aircraft. Interpreting these old photos is not a simple matter. With the info that has come to pass since Dans original article there is little doubt in my mind that this was simply Kirschteins scheme with a Red LO painted on the fuselage. It is not uncommon to see white markings such as crosses that differ from white personal markings in tone on these photos. I have to agree with Taz and others although a unique Udet scheme would be cool!
RAGIII

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
What you are saying is ernst Udet went to war flying somebodies elses airplane with their markings on it. Udet was an established Ace of note, and at this time Kirschstein has started climbing the ladder. He was not a Jastaführer at this time. Udet is Ace and a Jastaführer. All you need to do is read Udet's biography and you will find he has a large ego which is characteristic of all fighter pilots. I have never met a shy retiring fighter pilot, have you Taz? The thing I find amazing, it has occured to any of you that he repainted his triplane. He was not going to fly some one elses triplane. Study the photo, not just look at them, you will find the forward fuselage is over painted, it was not when Kirschstein had it. Look at the fuselage cross, the white border contrasts strongly with the light diagonal stripe, which is not white. You want white, look at the rudder, it's white. The top of the LO is darker than the dark stripe it crosses. RED IS NOT DARKER THAN BLACK! In order for your black and white to work you declared the LO is red!! WRONG!! The LO is black. Compare the the tops of the LO to the black cross. They are the same, if the cross is black then the LO must black! If you go back and read the article there was a period of time before he started using the triplane. This presumeably, is when it was repainted.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Rinahe]

Hi all,

Excuse me if I took part in this interesting thread.

I think that the arguments of Mr. Abbott are quite significants. Maybe Udet looks the particular scheme of Kirschstein's triplane and makes his own version of the stripes, using more bright colors. The diferent shades of white in the photos seems to me that works the same that with Mohnicke's sky blue Dr.I.
Also the symbol is black, like Dan_San said it was the 'Lo'.

This is just my opinion.

Rinahe

(thanks, and sorry for my poor english)

[womenfly2]

.... Thank you Mr Abbott. I believe as you, each fighter pilot would personalize his own plane. Maybe in a fix he may fly someone else's, before he did his thing, but only if need be.

Painting ones plane to reflect the pilots inner feelings, he make a bond with it, making it become one with himself. A friend that would be there in combat, someone he could rely on, even if it was only steel and fabric. But you have to believe in something.

Flying his own aircraft was more of an inner personnel feeling, a secure feeling of knowing ones own stead. Many pilots did come from a calvary background. Riding someone else's horse in combat could be very insecure. Do not know if Udet did.

We pilots do have an ego, that's for sure. Until something scares the "be jesus" out of us and we are humble again ... but not for long.

So, Mr. Abbott is correct, one does not only look at a picture but also one needs to know the man.

Just my opinion.

Thanks everyone for all the comments, Taz, RagIII, Intrepid, .... and keeping this on an adult level.

WF2

[Laserlloyd]

Hi Every-One:

I like this whole subject on “What color is it”. I have followed this vary subject though different treads in the last couple of years. There have been some very heated exchanges because of the different schools of thoughts. So to identify the exact color one must know what type of film that was use. If we don’t know then it’s open to interpretation

If I can paraphrase, there seems to be two different film stocks used during that time, monochromatic and panchromatic (I hope this is correct) and depending on which type of stock is used could give different looking results on the color tones.

This is an example from Mr. Flibbes from another thread on the two different types of films.



As an Ammeter researcher I would love to know more on color identification of b/w photos. I would like to see either a tread dedicated to this study or one of you write an article and post it here or in C&C and OTF. A complete study of this could help us all and take the sting out of this subject.

I would like to one day have the knowledge of many of our Experts here. To pass this along to the new researcher would be of the benefit of us all.

I would like to here your input in this…

Lloyd…

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Ladies and Gentlemen:
What you are saying is ernst Udet went to war flying somebodies elses airplane with their markings on it. Udet was an established Ace of note, and at this time Kirschstein has started climbing the ladder. He was not a Jastaführer at this time. Udet is Ace and a Jastaführer. All you need to do is read Udet's biography and you will find he has a large ego which is characteristic of all fighter pilots. I have never met a shy retiring fighter pilot, have you Taz? The thing I find amazing, it has occured to any of you that he repainted his triplane. He was not going to fly some one elses triplane.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

Hi Dan-San.

With the greatest respect sir, you seem (to me) to be basing your premise on assumptions and a certain reverse logic.

If you wouldn't mind Clarifying a few points please:

Are you saying that Jasta 4 (being the last Jasta of Jagdeschwader 1 to receive the Fokker D.VII) didn't use "Hand me down" Triplanes from Jasta 6 at all?

Or are you saying that they did receive them, but Udet wouldn't use one of them because he considered it beneath his dignity to be seen flying someone else's cast off?

Have you considered the possibility that Udet might've thought Kirschstein's stripey DR.1 just the (paint) job for a Jasta leader of his standing? At least until Jasta 4 received the D.VII themselves.

Personally, I think if he had as big an ego as you say he did, there's no way he would've allowed any of his men to fly such a strikingly painted plane...It looked so good, he claimed it as his own!

Regards.

Bucky.

[papermache]

Dan-San et al,

Some more things to think about....

- We have to remember that Udet and company were in a war zone actually fighting a war. As such, material shortages and the demands of operations may have had a lot to do with what was able to be done to the aircraft during this period. MAYBE there was very little in the way of paint available to Jasta 4 when these triplanes came over. MAYBE operational demands to have fighters in the air were such that it was impossible to take an airplane out of service long enough to do a major repaint job.

If Udet was faced with any or all of these things, there would have been little he could do but fly the plane AS IS, despite what he and his ego may have wanted to do with it.

Or, as Bucky said, he may just have dug what he saw and claimed it for himself. Slap on the "LO" and away I go.

papermache

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Southside Bucky;]
NO, what I said is an ace with an ego is NOT going fly someone elses airplane (aeroplane) with there markings.
It is so damned simple, he repainted it. Before you go off on a tair, study the photos the of Kirschstein DR.I, the forward fuselage was streaked camouflage. After Udet got it (same plane) the forward fuselage is over-painted.
Every machine Udet Flew after he became the Jastafüher of
Jasta 37. When Udet joined Jasta 11 on 18 March 1918, his Fok.DR.I may not have been decorated. There was no slack period during the Battle of France. The battle was still in progress when he went on medical leave. When he returned on 21 May 1918 and was made Jastaführer of Jasta 4. Jage Nr1,Richthofen had moved to airfields around Guise. During this period, they were working up for the Second Battle of the Marne which was to begin on 27 May 1918, so he had six days to get that machine repainted. There is no victory evidence until 31 May 1918.
He may or may not have flown during the period of 21 May to 30 May 1918. There as ample time to have repainted.
Finis
Dan-San

[Southside Bucky]

OK Dan-San, Like I said, I just wanted clarification on your standpoint.

In the end, it become's just a question of colours then...You say red & blue, I say black & (eventually quite weathered) white.

All the best.

Bucky.