Q: On Udet's DR-1 ...

[Bookmaker]

Taz, A little off subject, but related. I fly a 1/3 scale R/C Sopwith Pup painted in black & white checkerboard. (documented training squadron aircraft) The squares are about 4 or 5" on my model. Talk about an optical illusion, when I turn away in good sun conditions, the checkerboard makes my eyeballs jiggle.

My comment about documantation was in generalities, not any specific plane. The one you referred to appears to be one of the documented exceptions. I still enjoy the discussions of personal research and theories of "undocumented colors". That is of course as long as the discussions are civil and have some merit.

Dale

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lady and Gentlemen:
1. Over the two coats of clear dope on the wings and tails and one coat of of clear dope on the fuselage, over which was one color coat, topped with one coat of varnish to water proof the fabric.
2. Bucky, the blue under color you have pointed out is not the fabric on the longeron, but the forward bottom cowl with side edges turned up, encasing the botton sides of the fuselage.
3. If you look very close about 1 meter aft of the aluminum door you will see a rectangular area, about 300 x 200 mm. This area is encasing the weight table which has been moved from its original position to this position, centered between the lower and middle wing. This area is streaked with the weights table in black. The entire fuselage side forward of the striping on the aft fuselage, is over painted.
4. Womenfly2, would you please post the black and white drawing, so it may be compared to this photograph.
5. I have yet to receive a response from anyone that has even considered the possiblity that Udet repainted this machine, when in fact, it is shown specifically on the forward left side of the fuselage. On Ltn. Kirschstein's machine, the forward fuselage is NOT over-painted and IS still in the streaked factory finish.
I try to do my research with an open mind, and no pre-conceived ideas, using every piece of information available, from all sources, fabric samples, intelligence reports, other researcher's observations. however in July 1984, this I had to do it entirely alone, without any other data from any other source. I made my analysis and rationale on Ltn.Ernst Udets machine in the article that was published in World War 1 Aero, No 101, Sept 1984. The photo presented is one of the two photos I had worked from. I believe the other photo is from a biography of Ltn. Hans Waldhausen which shows the stripping on the upper wing.
If you take the time to study this photo more closely, you might change your mind on how this machine is finished.
If you have the article from World War 1 Aero, No 101, follow my rationale and and you will come to the same conclusion that I did, or it will open your mind to some of the possibilities that are discussed and reason will prevail.
Womenfly 2, please post the black and white drawing.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Taz]

One thing everyone should realize, too, is that Dan-San and I are old friends and both of us enjoy a little disagreement because we both know it is done in the spirit of enlightenment and that both of us have done our homework. We exchange books, info (more from Dan to me), and images (more from me to Dan) and have a great deal of respect for each other. We still are not sure who is the most stubborn because it is pretty close to a draw. Enjoy the show as much as Dan-San and I do.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lady and Gentlemen:
While some my think there is antimosity between Taz Greg and I, there is none whatsoever. I consider Taz a very close and dear friend, and Greg, he is my adopted son, not in reality but in affection. Taz, I know I'm stubborn, I am somewhat like a terrier, I'll never let go if I am convinved I am right. In the Udet case, I know I am right. I have presented solid evidence with supporting material. They are both not identical in finish, but the same aircraft.
Taz, Greg and I have different view points and nothing more. In the WW1 Aero article, (1984) one of the people I list in my credits to is Greg VanWyngarden. That is 23 years ago, damn, time is flying by.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[womenfly2]

To Dan, Taz, Greg .... an all the rest. You guy's are way cool!

Dan I will post the black and white photo this week end. Sorry for not including it for comparison. Just thought we had many black and white photos to study here already posted.

Dan ... you are saying that the weight table was not over painted and still shows the green streaking. Can you show us this in a picture?

Taz ... would you please post a picture of the "commissioned Dan-San's color portrait of 586/17" for us to enjoy. I think it would be very interesting to use for comparison and would be very interesting to see too.

Thanks you guy's!
WF2

[josef scott]

I'm still wondering about a photo or period source that shows the tripe had the forward fuselage streaked when Kirschstein had it!?

[Taz]

WF2- You already posted a copy of my original 5 view drawing. Your copy is half size at 1/72 and that is why I mentioned it.

Josef- The streaking on the forward part of Dr.I fuselages looks almost solid under some lighting conditions. Some Dr.Is also had heavier or more solid streaking on the forward fuselage which looks completely overpainted in some photos. Most (not all) Dr.Is transitioned to solid olive forward of the leading edge of the middle wing. Perhaps this was because of castor oil staining concerns. The axle wing tops were solid, not streaked, olive for the same reason, plus the necessity of completely covering the plywood skin. The F.I triplanes actually had a solid olive demarcation line (very visible on the fuselage shot of F.I 101/17 WN 1697) on the fuselage, forward of which was solid olive paint.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Southside Bucky]

Hi Dan-San.

All's good with you I hope.

We'll have to agree to disagree (again!) about the forward fuselage sky blue border...

I have WW1 Aero 101...I read it for the first time back in the summer of '85. There are some good points about the article; the way you pinpointed a time frame for the photo for example, is very well done.

However, What you failed to mention in the article, is that 586/17 had come from Jasta 6 and previously belonged to Hans Kirschstein. They don't get a mention anywhere...Obviously, this was because you didn't know that at the time. I think this info came to light (via Alex Imrie, I think) a few years later.

I honestly thought it was generally accepted that the documented and proven Jasta 6/Kirschstein information coming to light, had rendered your (well reasoned) article somewhat redundant. In fact, until this thread started I thought you were of the same opinion, and was surprised that you still held the red/blue view!

One other point: The few poor quality photo's show a pretty dog eared and weather beaten aircraft...If it had been recently overpainted, it would have looked a lot fresher.

To my mind, all reason, logic and circumstances dictate that 586/17 retained it's jasta 6 scheme for the short time that Udet used it.

All the best.

Bucky.

[Taz]

Bucky- I can never remember what I wrote here or sent in an e-mail to someone, but I did forget to post one important fact. Kirchstein came from Jasta 6 to Jasta 4 as the temporary Staffelführer from 9-15 May. He brought 586/17 with him to Jasta 4. While Kirchstein was there, Jasta 6 began reequipping with the Fokker D.VII. When Kirchstein returned to Jasta 6, he left 586/17 behind and was given a new Fokker D.VII, which he soon painted with (Guess what?) black and white stripes.

Kirchstein and von Rautter shared temporary Staffelführer duties at Jasta 4 until Udet returned from the hospital following an ear infection. Udet, Weiss, and Mohnicke had shared temporary Staffelführer duties at Jasta 11 until LvR returned from hospital after his bad crash in Dr.I 454/17. Udet departed from Jasta 11 to the hospital in April and returned in May as Jasta 4 Staffelführer.

Simple is it not?

Taz
Terry Phillips

[womenfly2]

... I believe Mr. Abbott wanted me to post the two pictures side-by-side.
One in color and the other is the same color print but in black & white.

Compare the tonal hues in the Black & White print to the real Black & White photos ....

Udet DR.1 Abbott-1a.jpgUdet DR.1 Abbott-2.jpg

Posted with permission from Mr. Abbott.