Captured Nieuport 11 in Imperial German service

Kilian · 17 July 2007, 05:10 AM

the Pilot was Lt. Santa Maria?

Olson · 17 July 2007, 05:12 AM

Thanks for your contribution. I have visited this site on numerous occasions, but have my doubts as to the authenticity and/or accuracy of some of the profiles presented. Many seem to be interpretations, not necessarily correct in all respects. However, many are obviously the work of well researched documentation by accomplished artists. I think it would generally be prudent to corroborate these images with other sources.

John Masters · 17 July 2007, 01:48 PM

Olsen--

Those are the same profiles as on the 'Nieuport Pages' (google it) as well as the Aeromaster 'Silver Hawks' series (#48-504) so I would bet that the pics are accurate. Plus on pages 10, 11, and 13 of Windsock Datafile #20 there are photos of these captured and re-marked craft.

Have fun!

John

Uhlan · 21 July 2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregvan

As noted, it would seem that Student may have initially flown this Nieuport in its standard French camouflage on the upper surfaces. It's quite clear that this machine was in pretty pristine shape when Student acquired it.Student had the German national insignia applied to the rudder and underside of the wings, and most likely the top surface as well. The French tricolour on the rudder was probably overpainted a neutral color (or else entirely re-covered, which seems unlikely to me), then the German national insignia was applied.

Firstly, thank you for the interesting posts. I had only seen the first two photos before, the rest is new to me. When I suggested a decorative band I meant the aircraft in it's later guise, not the green/white/blue scheme. I agree that the effect seen on the photo of it in green/brown/blue is lighting. Now that I think about it you are probably right about the other photo (Photo A). This photo seems to have been taken on a sunny day. If the front of the cowling heavily reflected the sunlight you might actually get this effect with unusually high contrast between the front of the cowling and the sides which could be mistaken for a cowling band

. However, as for the visible demarcation between the fields surrounding the Crosses Pattée I don't see it in the ebay photo (Photo B) and what I see in the others does not indicate a demarcation either. This could just as easily be a lighting effect caused by the fabric being warped between the wing ribs. I don't see the slightest hint of a demarcation in Photo A for example. I still think the 'flower' on the wheel disks could have been red or orange as well as black.

Your profile in the Osprey book is probably correct in so far as the cowling is concerned. The cowling was very possibly natural metal rather than painted especially in view of the fact that Photo C shows no band. We'll have to disagree about the blue color. I'm also not sure about the color of the wheel disk 'flower' being black.

Photo A.

Photo B.

Photo C.

Olson · 5 September 2007, 05:07 PM

I am beginning to see the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel as I near the completion of the modified Balsa USA 1/4 scale Nieuport 11 in German livery, and will post photos if and when. I am now wondering if there is any record of combat between this captured N 11 Ltn Student briefly flew operationally and any Nieuport 11 from the French air service, sort of a "mano a mano" contest?

PFFF · 5 September 2007, 05:36 PM

Did Student capture # 1324?
Who would the aircraft with the "Crossed Swords" belong to? {Squadron Embleum}?

Cigogne · 9 September 2007, 04:49 PM

PFFF,

The crossed swords emblem was a personal marking seen also on an Albatros D.II at Jasta 9. Student was in Jasta 9.

Also, Bernert's Pup was actually the Pup of Carl Holler, who downed it. Holler is seen in several photos posing with the remarked Pup at Jasta 6. Bernert and Holler were close friends. Bernert also posed with it, but I believe it is the same aircraft as the one Holler posed with.

Gregvan · 9 September 2007, 05:17 PM

Hi Cigogne,

Yes, Bernert's Sopwith Pup was the same one shot down by Carl Holler (Pup B1721, coded "3", flown by Lt. F.W. Kantel of No 54 Sqn, taken PoW on 30 May 1917. Bernert apparently took it over and brought it with him to

Jasta Boelcke when he was given command of that unit. There are actually quite a few photos of the Pup at Jasta Boelcke, in squadron line-ups and with Bernert all suited up and preparing to fly it. In some albums it is captioned as "Bernert's Sopwith Pup". As we've discussed before, Bernert was still in recovery from injuries suffered in a crash at Jasta 6, but he must have been well enough to do some flying in the Pup at Jasta Boelcke. Whether or not he actually flew it in combat is more difficult to determine. It was apparently equipped with a Spandau gun, IIRC.

Greg

Olson · 16 September 2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olson

I am beginning to see the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel as I near the completion of the modified Balsa USA 1/4 scale Nieuport 11 in German livery, and will post photos if and when. I am now wondering if there is any record of combat between this captured N 11 Ltn Student briefly flew operationally and any Nieuport 11 from the French air service, sort of a "mano a mano" contest?

But is there any evidence that one or more of Student's kills were scored flying this captured Nieuport? It would be a particular irony if he fought, or even scored, against a French Nieuport of any mark.

Gregvan · 16 September 2007, 03:12 PM

Hi,

I really, really doubt that any of Student's victories were attained in the Nieuport 11. He reportedly achieved his first three victories (July/August 1916) in his Fokker E.IV - that's what he inscribed on a photo caption anyway. His last three victories were attained on 16 March, 22 August and 1 November 1917, and he was almost certainly flying Albatros fighters for those.

Greg