Wet Blending of 3 Colors on Fokker Dr.1's

Piotr · 5 October 2007, 04:06 AM

Dan-San,

Early production Fok. D.VII samples of the streaked fabrics (what I saw in IWM and private call it "Spring Drizzle") are totally in different colors like samples of the Fok. Dr.1 from this same collection!!!!

The question is why?
The second question is Fokers Dr.1 using same colorful canvas like D.VII?

Piotr

RAGIII · 5 October 2007, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

Rick- I am really comfortable with the inputs we have seen from people I really respect on this subject. Heinz Nowarra was one of the early giants who opened up the field of WW-I (and WW-II as well, he was really prolific) aviation history. We have learned a lot in the last 40 years, but Nowarra undoubtedly had access to samples of fabric from the Dr.I and D.VII a long time ago. The samples he saw may not have suffered as much UV damage as the ones now available. His conclusion on the colors matches up with what Dave and Acer have been discussing and is not inconsistent with what Dan-San described he saw.

Dave's description of olive paint on samples of 425/17 was completely new to me. I thought all the samples were over either CDL or light blue paint. Will have to dig up that source, as well. Learn something new every time we do this.

Dave, acer, Dan-San- Great stuff and thanks for all participating in something which could be perceived as old hat, but proved not to be.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Taz,
Just in case my comments unintentionally implied otherwise I agree! It seems to me that the Dr1 streaking issue has come full circle. We now have older information, Nowarra and others, confirmed by more recent observations, Dave and Acer. By the way, have you done any Editing on your book regarding the finish of DR1s ? :-)
RAGIII
P.S. I think it was Alan that was responsible for the No streaking under the red on 425/17

Welsh Dave · 5 October 2007, 08:34 AM

Piotr - We have been discussing the brighter green streaks on D.VIIs.
No one knows why the colour was changed, but it may have been because the olive green dye was no longer available. Alternatively, the Air Service may have asked Fokker to use a paint that did not turn into a brown like the RAF's P.C. 10.

More important for modellers and artists is when the change came, and that is very hard to tell from photographs. If the other sample you've seen is the serial number from D.VII 252/18 in Paris (Spring drizzle, lol

) and it's definitely green, that means the change came early in D.VII production - and you're a star, buddy.

There is no evidence that any Triplane ever carried printed "lozenge" fabric, however hard the "Blue Max" movie may have tried to imply it.

Piotr · 8 October 2007, 02:23 AM

Hi Dave,

Yes I think you have right!

The worst is that modelers and artists start over interpret this colors...

I was very surprised by the IWM canvas samples, for example by dark malachite green etc.
I don't saw canvas sample from D.VII 252/18 in Paris - Colors are similar to IWM samples?
Do you have any photo?

Very interesting "Spring drizzle" samples are also coded:
"K.100 (G) 1764 (a)" and "6/3/Bde/3" and "G/2/1" (DFV CV's)

Welsh Dave · 8 October 2007, 02:01 PM

Hi, Piotr.

Sorry, we had a little misunderstanding there. I thought your "spring drizzle" was a witty reference to the song "I Love Paris".

There is a print of the serial number panel from 252/18 in Windsock Worldwide Vol. 23, No. 3, i.e. the last-but-one. It's in connection with my article on streaky camouflage, which is already well and truly out of date; I hadn't seen the dark grey sample from 144/17 when I wrote it.

The picture, lent to me by GVW, was taken through glass, and the colour rendition is not very good. It looks brown on that print, but in Windsock it's slightly more greenish, with a bright green end where the computer has tried to make sense of the area in shadow.

A friend who saw the sample on display a few years ago thinks it was green, but from the photo it's not at all certain. If it's as green as the one from 368/18 in the IWM, there will be no doubt. (For Blackadder fans, we're getting into Blue Stone of Galveston territory here.)

So, where did you see the other green sample, and is the aircraft serial number known?

Malachite is a good description of the later colour. British railfans will know it as the colour of Southern Railway locomotives and coaches, which, coincidentally, had previously been painted olive green.

Taz · 8 October 2007, 02:46 PM

Dave- The really good news about what we have discovered is the chance to put it all together in the Triplane Datafile Special next summer. Between what you, acer, and Dan-San have observed, we now have a pretty complete picture of Dr.I streaky camouflage. Maybe we can roll Manfred Thiemeyer in on the subject as well, since he made a presentation on the subject in Germany based on examining Dr.I fabric samples. There are a few possible excursions on some late model Dr.Is, which may have had some different shades of green/blue, but those just need to be noted, with little chance of coming to complete closure unless new samples come to light. 588/17's rudder survived, so maybe there are fabric samples buried somewhere as well. Seems like I landed an F-111F at RAF Wittering in 1982, but I could be mistaken. Might be worth a phone call to see if there are any other surviving pieces.

If you want to make another trip to IWM and try and get high res scans of their fabric samples, I am willing to pay expenses. My daughter lives near Dartford, but it will be awhile before I get there.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Laserlloyd · 8 October 2007, 04:56 PM

Hi Dromer's:

As you are talking about IWM, can anyone confirm that IWM has upper wing cross from 425/17? I thought I saw a photo some time ago but their online search didn't come up with any thing.

I'm also look for a photo of it if someone can share it. you can PM, email me or look in the camo section for my post under 427/17 (Yes, it was a bad typo

)

Thanks

Sorry to side track, So continue on....

Lloyd...

Dan_San_Abbott · 9 October 2007, 02:06 PM

Gentlemen:
The Fokker factory wing drawings do not provide instructions on how the wing frame was to be finished. It lists the fabric, tape, paints, varnish etc, but not the instructions on how these materials were to be used.
We are missing the wing frame finishing instructions, the covering instructions and finally the doping and painting instructions. If we had the specifications for the doping and painting, we would know precisely the finished colors.
Without that document, all we have are a few fabric samples, some available to see at the IWM and some in private hands. These private samples, I understand are not available for viewing by the public????
Question, does anyone know of, or have the Fokker doping and painting instructions? I wonder, did Peter Grosz have it in his Fokker data. He had a enormous amount of Fokker data from the Arthur Weyl Collection. It is in Berlin now!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Sreiko · 9 October 2007, 11:27 PM

Dan San- this what you said is shocking for me. For all of this decades nobody have seen all of the samples, nobody make pin point analyze of the fabric, nobody find exact formula how the preparation was made and technique of application!!! And all info coming from the aged, chemically evolute and rapidly changed samples which color is everything but the match of the original destination!!!

You said some archive is in Berlin now- where? Maybe I will travel in Germany in February and I will gladly like to see material. Also would like to have some industrial manufacture list from the German manufacture of that time. Only way is direct take info from archive of manufacture. Better to forget about the preserving samples.

Sorry to say all above and hope that I did not offend anybody as well it was not my intention. I remember that one wooden case was evaluated here in Serbia and that was wooden case from old Serbian King many century ago. The exerts find seven layer of paint and even excamine correct ingredients. That was interesting to see that in that time blue color was used as basic color layer as wood preparation.

All of this could be done in the countries where the fabric was preserved.

Sorry again if I have offend anybody

ManfredT · 10 October 2007, 12:53 AM

In the PM Grosz Collection there is nothing new to find about how the Fokker aircraft were painted. The information which is quoted by Dan San so often is from the PM Grosz collection.

I am wondering that no one ask anymore for the Fokker book of Dave Watts. From his collection you have access to the photo of the Fokker paint shop. From his collection you have acces to the photo of the Dr. I fabric sample in the IWM. Hardly to believe, that this was the only photo done there.

acer

PS Dave?