Wet Blending of 3 Colors on Fokker Dr.1's

Sreiko · 10 October 2007, 12:55 AM

Any more info about Fokker book of Dave Watts

Laserlloyd · 10 October 2007, 05:14 AM

I emailed Dave the other day, I haven't heard from Dave since the Dayton Dawn Patrol. I'll try call him to day to see if he's in town.

Lloyd...

Laserlloyd · 10 October 2007, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acer

In the PM Grosz Collection there is nothing new to find about how the Fokker aircraft were painted. The information which is quoted by Dan San so often is from the PM Grosz collection.

Hi acer:

I was just wondering if you have have a chance to see Peter's collection. How do you know whats in it? As far as I know before Peter had left us and his collection went to Germany. One of his disciples had the opportunity to go though and scan his collection and I was told that there is a lot of things that have never been published before. So how do you know that there is nothing new?

Lloyd...

Taz · 10 October 2007, 07:51 AM

Lloyd, Sreiko- As acer stated, Peter did not really care about colors, units, or aces, except how it applied to the aircraft he was studying. He was interested in the aircraft technical features, factory markings helping identify individual aircraft, how that aircraft performed, and what its significance to the war effort was. All his Datafiles refused to discuss camouflage colors, and he left that to Ray Rimell. Peter would help out other researchers by providing photos of aircraft and their pilots, but to him those pilots and their personal markings were only interesting captions to be used in books concentrating on the aircraft itself.

The photos in Dave's future book come from original Fokker photographs and negatives held by the Fokker Heritage Trust. I am really looking forward to the publication of his book, done with full cooperation of the Fokker Heritage Trust.

We really do need to document photographically (digitally actually) those samples of fabric still available before they deteriorate any further.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Laserlloyd · 10 October 2007, 08:07 AM

I too, can't wait for Dave's book on Fokker factory photos. Dave had a chance to show me some of them and it's going to be packed with a lot of never seen Fokker photos.

Thanks for the reply Taz...

Lloyd...

Sreiko · 10 October 2007, 11:04 PM

Taz- i did not mean at all on Peter Grozs. He is brightest star in the sky of the aviation historian and ideal how the man have to work.

I know about Fokker Heritage Trust and know that they have a lot of materials.

FOKKERJ · 19 October 2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

Dave- I just noticed you were writing your response (much more detailed than mine) at the same time I wrote my first one and I just read yours right now. I agree with everything you wrote.

It is a crying shame the samples are being mismanaged. Why would anyone want to put a transparency on a box containing fabric or photographs? Even amateurs like me know better than that.[

The report on F.I 103/17 states plainly that the upper side was camouflaged in green and the undersides in blue.

The part of your story that interests me is the light blue tinted dope. None of the Triplanes had a topside coat of light blue paint, in my opinion, but that does not preclude some blue tinted dope. Is there any evidence of this light blue tinted dope on the sample of the top side of 144/17, or does it look like it was reserved for the bottom? Rereading your post, it would seem the upper side color was applied over clear dope and not light blue. Maybe we will puzzle this all out eventually.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Hi Taz,

Other than protection from light exposure, UV's, What is the proper way to store old fotografs?

Thanks, FOKKERJ aka Jay Schwartz

Welsh Dave · 20 October 2007, 05:24 AM

I've been otherwise occupied, but I shall contact the IWM as soon as possible with a view to getting their samples scanned.

Meanwhile, looking again at the sample of leading edge fabric from 425/17 on p.20 of Windsock Vol.21, No.2, March/April 2005, I see that the dark grey dye/varnish is present!

It was tentatively identified as dark green at the time, but under magnification it looks exactly like the grey IWM sample, with the same rapid shading out from almost black to translucent grey. Dark angled streaks of it are visible at thin spots in the red overpaint.

With beige fabric showing through the thinnest parts of the grey, it fits Karl Timm's description of "Erdgrau" very neatly.

This paint does not impart a greyishness to the green paint where they mix, but simply darkens the green and partially alleviates the browning tendency. It can be likened to the toning greys in ink marker ranges, which darken existing colours without significantly changing their colour saturation.

Laserlloyd · 20 October 2007, 07:29 AM

Welsh Dave:

I don't have that that volume but I only know of four photos of 425/17, which one are you referring to, the on at Lechelle airfield or the one with the three men in it.

I have been talking Alan Toelle on his examination of the fabric from 425/17. He has indicated that NO OTHER color was found in his microscopic examination of the fabric except for the blue strip along the lower longeron and the black number "7". under the main red pigment only the linseed oil varnish was evident. There is no green paint found on the sample.

Then it comes to the Fokker Dr.I and who killed the Red Baron, lots of books and articles have been written but not all of it is correct. The point that I'm trying to make is just because that it is written it may not be fully correct. I have talked about this in other threads years ago with Dan-San about this miss -information captioned on photos and it keeps repeating though time every time it is shown with out questioning.

Point in case. Some published photos of 425/17 at Lechelle airfield list that there are no stacking pads on the wings, This can be misleading from any published photo because it will diminish the detail that will show it, you need a copy of the original photo to actually see it and I can see all six of them in mine.

Just because of this I have started to researching the fabric from 425/17 and comparing them to the photos. Alan, Taz and Langdon have been of great help in trying to get my facts strait.

The dark streaks can't be green just because no green has every been found in any fabric from 425/17, This comes to light in "good-Buy To All That Red" by Alan Toelle in C&C int. vol.26 no.3 -1995.

I hope this helps a little.

Lloyd...

Taz · 23 October 2007, 08:21 AM

Jay- Sorry to take so long to answer. Was fly-fishing in Montana. Photos should be stored individually in archival plastic sleeves and then stored in acid free boxes or in photo albums stored in boxes. The sleeves can be mounted in photo albums with acid free paper using archival corner mounts to prevent damaging the photos. Old photo albums should be stripped to individual pages if possible and the pages protected by large archival sleeves and stored in acid free boxes. If unable to strip an album because the pages are permanently bound together, the pages should be covered with archival sleeves for storage or, at a minumum, acid free paper placed between the pages to prevent damage from the opposite page's photos or paper. Light Impressions is an excellent source for archival materials. Unfortunately doing it right costs a bit of money, but not compared to the original investment.

Taz
Terry Phillips