Wet Blending of 3 Colors on Fokker Dr.1's

[jumpinjan]

Surprisingly, there's no reference to Viridian in Methuen. I did find a reference on Wikipedia, and there were RGB values. The best that I can codify in Methuen is about 26D8 from the monitor.

But, Methuen calls 26D8 Chrome Green. This fits within my error bars of Dan Abbott's medium value:
26D3 - Light
26E8 - Medium
26F8 - Dark

[Welsh Dave]

I too was surprised not to find viridian mentioned in Methuen. I know it as an art colour in oil and acrylic, and it's very close to the sample you posted, jumpinjan.

[Sreiko]

Does it mean that raw green color is used?

[ManfredT]

Welsh Dave,

sorry, if I have quoted something not he right way.

When agreeing with Dan San I was thinking of the national insignia and the need for zinc oxide. A light blue paint needs always a white pigment.

An uncontrolled growth of fungi is a serious problem to any organic material. Your observance suggest such an infestation, perhaps to the ivory pigment and the fabric. Only a useless remote diagnosis, I know, but worth to brief the curator.

A good reason for an chemical analysis, if the sample allows a snippet to destroy. Then we all will be enlighted.

acer

[ManfredT]

jumpinjan, Welsh Dave,

viridian (viridine) green is refered as 29 A5 in the Methuen, Second Edition 1967, pg. 223

acer

[Taz]

Acer, Dave, Dan-San- I think you three have about solved the puzzle. If the three colors seen in the factory paint shop photo are olive green (predominant), brown, and black, the gray Dave is seeing could be just thinned black. At least that is how I made gray in my younger days when I built models. The only truly opaque paint (except for very dark streaks) was the light blue made of the zinc oxide and blue pigment and whatever olive green paint was used to paint the metal panels. This light blue paint was also used for cleaning up the streaks (who knows why, painters desire to be neat and provide a professional looking result, perhaps), which made the "returned" paint we see on the bottom of the fuselage and on the tailplane and elevator. On the wings, the light blue was painted on last as well to clean up the leading edges. Being able to streak the wings, fuselage, and tailplane without worrying about a little splashing on the bottom surfaces, which would be covered with opaque light blue anyway, might also have sped up the painting process.

The reports of blue on the top surfaces of Dr.Is (not the F.Is, where this was not documented in contemporary sources) could have been bad writing, or actual use of excess blue pigments or dyes. I lean toward the former, but we will probably never know on that one.

Interesting on G/5Bde/5. I know G/5Bde/2 was 425/17 and G/5Bde/8 was 546/17, but had never heard G/5Bde/5 was a Dr.I

Juanita Franzi's color scheme seems to hit a chord with nearly all of us, so it probably makes a good guide for modelers and replica builders as well.

One final question would be if the bottom wing used blue tinted dope, were the lower cross fields clear doped linen or blue tinted dope? They are certainly very transparent, since the ribs and spar can be plainly seen with light shining on the top of the wing.

Taz
Terry phillips

[Sreiko]

Nice to hear that finally will be find answer about the Fokker Dr.I paints. To regret I should have to check again color on my color profiles...

[Romani]

Originally Posted by Taz

Acer, Dave, Dan-San- I think you three have about solved the puzzle. If the three colors seen in the factory paint shop photo are olive green (predominant), brown, and black, the gray Dave is seeing could be just thinned black.

Are you saying the camouflage was streaks of green, brown, and black?

I think we had arrived to the conclusion that there was only one color for top surfaces , the anilin dye. DSA says it's olive brown because that's what can be seen in existing samples. I believe, based on the evidence presented, that since that color is a an anilin dye, it was olive green and became brown with exposition to sunlight by oxidation.

About the "erdgrau" (earth gray) comment by a mechanic. Remember that the famous "feldgrau" color for uniforms can be different things,in WWI it was certainly grey and in WWII it was a grayish green. So maybe it cannot be taken litherally!

About the gray streaks... I am wondering if they are just not the darkest streaks of olive paint, sometimes olive paint can look greyish.

Regarding the blue and green mixture in the uppersurfaces of 588/17. On the previous thread I thought it could be a field modification, now I reconsidered and think that it's very unlikely that a lowly Gefreiter could repaint his machine or the groundcrews had the time and paint to do so.

For a time I thought maybe it was a former Jasta 13 machine with a green nose and blue fuselage, but I think I discarded that possibility after checking.

It still doesn't make sense that light blue is used on the top surfaces of the wings, in small dots like in lozenge, yes it can work, but in bands... no way, and I don't dare to think the "blue" in the report refers to the struts, wish it were so simple!

In view of the recent discovery that Ritter von Schleich painted the sides of the fuselage of his Albatros light blue, with the fuselage top on dark green, I think when the report meant "green and blue" mixture, he meant olive grean on the top of the wings and fuselage, and light undersurface blue on the fuselage sides, perhaps even streaked with olive on top of it.

Why not? Similar camouflage schemes with dark top fuselages and sky blue sides appear in German aircraft of WWII, so the concept is sound, obvious, even, there you have Schleich example.
Regarding olive streaking over light bluen, I've seen WWII cammo schemes where there's no clear boundary of colors and there are spots of the top color over the blue, so the concept is feasible.

This might seem as going back to square one and the traditional depiction of Voss triplane. Only that I don't think blue was used on the wings or turtledeck, and that these stances of "blue and green" triplanes are the exception, not the norm.

We know that the Germans were short of paints and everything, I think such a scheme with blue sides could very well have done at factory using surplus undersurface blue paint, due to the switch to lozenge fabric of wich should there be more stocks than olive color powder.

On a related subject, I think the axle wing of some DVIIs was painted in the same dark green anticorrosion primer used to paint struts sometimes, the inside of the engine compartment and metal fittings such as the tachometer bar.

[RAGIII]

Dave,Taz, DSA,and others. It seems to me that Dave mentioned what IMHO is a notable theory. The Streaked camo seems to have been an Evolving process. What was used on the M5, DV etc. may not be the same as on Triplanes, which was not the same as DVIIs. "Perhaps" Fokker left the 1 dye unspecified because he knew there would be alterations due to supply and changing conditions. I for one will use the drawing you suggest as a guide, but would not be afraid to admit that other possibilities exist. it seems the problem lies in The photography in that a streaked aircraft looks pretty much the same with the pigments that have been discussed no matter the combination. For example Dr1s and DVIIs. The further discovery of existing samples seem to indicate a possibility that several combinations occurred.

Romani, I think that Only DSA was adament about the Olive Brown being the original and only pigment.

In closing I would like to mention a well respected researcher who read a capture report, compared it to a whole bunch of original photos,( or perhaps it was the other way around),and totally changed the way we view Albatros wing camo! Why are some of us being so,to use a phrase which is popular, "DOGMATIC" about the reports and camo on the DR1? I appreciate all of you who research and share your findings on this forum! Thanks to Taz, Dave, ACER, and yes DSA.
RAGIII

[sobrien]

Thanks to all of you for answering my question. Fascinating. I will have to get a copy of Gregvan's book so I can see Juanita Franzi's interpretation of the color scheme.

Sobrien