Wet Blending of 3 Colors on Fokker Dr.1's

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RAGSIII:
The reason I have not changed my view point is quite simple, I saw the Fok.DR.I 144/16 fabric samples at the IWM. I know what the colors are. That is why I have not changed my viewpoint. It is that simple. The fabric analysis and color codifying of the samples by Paul Leaman supports what I saw, and I use Paul's color codes.
I know what I saw and I have not changed my mind.
One thing I have found out, is, there are a lot of doubting Thomases and a whole lot of misinformation.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Taz]

Dan-San- You saw only, how many, one sample of 144/17 top fabric? There are more now. Dave was just there and saw green (brownish green actually, like a green olive) and gray on samples you did not see. Do you think he is making this up? Acer has access to other samples and he saw olive green (like a green olive), brown and black. Contemporary descriptions talk about green and blue, not brown and blue. This is not a conspiracy to discredit you, we are just trying to learn the truth. As you know, you are one of my best friends.

So hopefully what you learned from this thread was there was no varnish on the bottom wing lower surface, just tinted and untinted dope, and paint made from blue pigment, varnish (including an accelerant) and zinc oxide. No clear varnish, so the theory on the varnish coating shifting the light blue to turquoise is incorrect. The bottom color was light blue, and turned to turquoise with age. Dave's referenced capture report from 5Bde showed brown after long exposure to UV light, but even that noted blue paint.

I need to break out Alan's reports on the upper wing fabric, because I now strongly doubt there was any over coat of clear varnish on top either, or there would have been one on the bottom. The varnish was used to make the opaque paint for the bottom of the wings, with the accelerant making it dry quicker. With that much zinc oxide, there is no way the varnish itself was going to shift the color of the underside blue. If there was no overcoat of clear varnish, that also adds doubt to the theory the clear varnish shifted the brown towards green.

Both the olive green and light blue turned different colors with age, the green turning browner and the light blue turning greener.

I agree with Acer, Rick and Dave that there were likely variations on the colors used as production progressed, just as the F.I color scheme evolved into the returned light blue on the Dr.I. Very late Dr.Is could have been even greener, like early D.VIIs. Too hard to tell from black and white photographs.

Enough said. Juanita's rendering has now been stated by two very imminent historians to be very close to the correct colors and patterns of the samples they have seen and analyzed. Good enough for me. I will have to send Juanita this website since we have certainly been using her name enough.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Welsh Dave]

I was planning to leave this post until tonight, but with a broad and approximate consensus apparently emerging, this seems to be a good point to intervene. Besides, I have other work to get on with, so I don't expect to be able to post much in the next day or two.

Firstly, who would benefit most from the contents of the Bill of Materials? All items are listed by weight, even the liquids, whereas paint, dope, varnish, etc are invariably ordered and bought by the litre, gallon or pint.

At first sight the list may seem to be aimed at the engineers who would need to know the weight of finishing materials on the airframe. However, some of these materials would dry out, losing weight in the process, so that idea is out.

The Buying department would certainly be interested, but in calculating how much of each material to order for a given period of production, they would have to convert the weight of each fluid into litres.

Accounts would most likely get figures from Buying, with recourse to the Bill of Materials if any major discrepancy arose.

That leaves the Paint shop, who would need to know how much paint to mix for each shift or, more probably, each day. If the factory was running three eight-hour shifts and 90 triplanes were being built per month, that averages out at approximately one airframe painted per shift.

Small items such as undercarriage wings, wheels and cowlings may have been made and painted in bigger batches at less frequent intervals, and we must remember that spare parts up to and including mainplanes were also being manufactured and painted. It's unlikely that each material was laboriously weighed out and mixed for each and every component, because that would be a tremendous waste of time, effort and money. As this bill was concerned primarily with weight, mentioning blue varnish only to distinguish it from clear varnish, we shouldn't expect it to name colours for the dye; that would be left to the expertise of the Paint Shop staff, and probably to colour availability.

There would be a person or persons responsible for mixing and issuing enough of each preparation for the shift or day, or perhaps even for a few days. I'd guess this would be a job for one shift, probably the morning shift because the mixer needed daylight to see exactly what he or she was doing. However, that may not be the case. I don't know. The materials would be totted up, the paints mixed, and each painter given what he needed, by weight, for each job. For this purpose the mixer or storeman would have his own schedule based on the weights of mixed preparations, and this would be separate from the Bill of Materials.

Note that the weights in the said Bill are round figures, and not always in proportion to the areas to be covered. The idea was probably to average the materials out over the airframe, and to prepare enough paint, varnish, dope etc, to cover the day's work. The figures might well be rounded up to allow for contingencies such as accidental spillage. That would leave some paint spare, and I suspect excess blue paint sometimes ended up, suitably diluted with varnish, on the uppersurfaces.

One sample in the IWM is a streaky turquoise and blue. I thought at first it might be from a Fokker, but it's actually uppersurface fabric from a DFW. The streaks are not as pronounced as Fokker's. Light blue had only recently been a common overall colour, particularly on two-seaters, and Jasta Boelcke responded to the specified change from reddish brown to lilac by applying light blue to the tops of their Albatrosse. There is certainly enough precedent to make the occasional blue patch on a Triplane nothing out of the ordinary. Besides, a fast-climbing agile fighter would often present its planform against a misty, smoky horizon, so blue might even have been an advantage.

Regarding the sudden appearance of the grey sample in the IWM, the curator to whom I spoke when arranging my second visit said they had a few unattributed pieces of fabric. The piece in question has a page number linking it to 144/17, but it may have been separated from the rest of the collection for years or even decades. Perhaps my prodding led to its rediscovery and reinstatement. As I said, piously denying its existence won't make it go away!

Even though the samples are in the form of an unbound book with numbered pages in two big cardboard cases and two or three large folders in plastic bags, there is debate within the museum as to whether it is a book or a set of exhibits!

We know from the Fokker "paint shop" photo that three paints were used for the streaky camo, and there are three shade ranges on the wing being "painted". Simplest solution would be:

1. Clear varnish dyed olive or viridian.

2. The same, with added grey to darken it. Being neutral, the grey reduces colour saturation only slightly.

3. Varnish dyed dark grey, for adding to 1 and application over both clear doped fabric and the other two shades, creating extra dark streaks. Dark forward fuselages of Dr.Is appear to have a lot of this paint.

These paints may or may not contain a small amount of zinc oxide to make them translucent rather than transparent. I propose to experiment with various mixtures when I can find the time.

I also propose, on the same basis, to contact the IWM and ask if anything is being done about the damage to the olive sample. This may be an opportunity to raise the question of analysis, but I'm really not sanguine about that.

Will post again in a day or two.

[Sreiko]

I propose to experiment with various mixtures when I can find the time

This is great idea especially if you have basic list of the material and pigments used. BTW- could you take a photo of the samples preserved? Flash from camera from some distance could give good day light illumination and make very clear image. Just an idea

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Taz:
I saw two pieces from Fok.DR.I 144/17, upper olive brown streaked piece that was fairly dark with a few light streaks on it. It appeared to have a top coat of varnish. The bottom piece of turquoise and it was coated unevenly with varnish. It was darker than I thought it would be. This is jogging my memory back to September 1972. I was also interested in the weave of the fabric and they were as coarse a weave as the piece I had from Dr.I 425/17.
I also saw the large piece of MvR's upper wing cross. It verified to me that the piece I had was real and not a fake. I had my doubts about the dark red.
Blue skies,
Dan

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

RAGSIII:
The reason I have not changed my view point is quite simple, I saw the Fok.DR.I 144/16 fabric samples at the IWM. I know what the colors are. That is why I have not changed my viewpoint. It is that simple. The fabric analysis and color codifying of the samples by Paul Leaman supports what I saw, and I use Paul's color codes.
I know what I saw and I have not changed my mind.
One thing I have found out, is, there are a lot of doubting Thomases and a whole lot of misinformation.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan, I hope you did not misinterpret my meaning here. I did not intend to be critical of you. My intention was to remind EVERYONE that some things that were once considered Black and White, for instance All non lozenge covered, Albatros fighters had Mauve and Green wings, have over the years and with much research and new info been proven to be wrong. Your research on the Albie wings opened many eyes, even to this day some resist the findings. You have certainly earned the right to your own opinion and a mere observer like myself has no room to judge your opinions, As you say, Blue Skies!
RAGIII

[ManfredT]

Welsh Dave, Dan San,

Langdon wrote on 6 October 2005:

"This is one of the pieces from the IWM, the photo was taken by Dave Watts"

Posted is an image of streaky fabric, image is signed Watts Train Shop.

Is this the sample from Fok. Dr.I 147/17 both of you have seen, and now shows some white spots?

Fokker D.VII Streaking - One Color or Two?

post 105, 661596.jpg

acer

[Welsh Dave]

Yes, acer, that appears to be the piece.

You can see the crease across the middle, though the paint was still intact at the time. There are faint cloudy areas in some of the dark streaks, and these were more pronounced when I first saw the sample. The crease line at that time was still not so obvious as it is today.

Now the paint has cracked down to the fabric all along the crease line, and small white spots have erupted in the cloudy areas. The sample is in a thick cardboard file with a clear plastic window, and bits of dyed varnish, still clear, are adhering to the window over where the spots are.

Whether the spots are due to a fungal infection or a breakdown of paint containing a white pigment, the sample is deteriorating rapidly.

The picture plainly shows that the fabric weave is visible in the light areas, but not in the dark streaks. This would tend to imply the presence of a small amount of filler pigment.

Note that in this photograph the darker streaks appear greenish, while the lighter material is distinctly brown. I scanned the pic into Paint Shop Pro 7 and, with the colour circle on screen, ran the sampler cursor (the "dropper") over the image. The cursor oscillated through about five degrees of the colour wheel, the light areas being in the melon-to-orange sector, while the darkest streaks were in the deep yellow. The colours on the wheel represent basic hues. Shading added to these would give a khaki brown for the light streaks and a dark olive green for the darkest. These are very like the colours beneath the red paint on the RAF Museum's small samples from Richthofen's 425/17. The darker streaks are slightly more greenish there, too.

Living over 200 miles from London, at today's travel costs I cannot go there more than once a year, and I've had my visit for this year! It is also most unlikely I'd be allowed to photograph the IWM sample now; cameras have to be left in the cloakroom with everything else except for notebooks or loose paper and a pencil, with a small ruler if you are lucky! They put what you are allowed to carry in a big clear plastic bag. I did get some lozenge fabric tracings last time, but that's another story...

I have found a reference for the mechanic's description of green triplanes turning brown over about six weeks. It's on page 4 of Windsock Volume 13, No. 3.

I don't have that issue to hand; if anyone here has it, I'm sure some of us, at least, would welcome a transcript. Thanks.

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Gentlemen:

I Wish to clear a few things up.
1.When a bill of materials is prepared by the draftsman, he must list each and everything that is used to make that part or component. The wing spar and the drawing/part number. Each brad or nail by composition and size. They are not all thrown in a pot called nails, each specific color of paint/dope.
2.There is only one aniline powder listed, so the finish color is one color. It is my opinion that the variations in value are achieved by the viscosity of the lacquer. It is extremely difficult to brush lacquer/dope that thin.
3. The assumptions that the aniline powder is chrome yellow and carbon black it just that an assumption not supported by fact.
4. I have defined the color as "olive brown", that is based on the Methuen Handbook of Colour technical definition of the color. From what I observed in September 1972, the colour of the fabric sample was a dark olive green/brown.
Brown is the color definition of two opposite color mixed together. It can vary all over the board. But when it is codified it become specific as to hue, value, intensity and tone.
5. If the observer is not color trained you will get observations like "green and blue" with light green on the undersides. The undersides were turquoise, that is not light blue, unless you lack color skills.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
P.S. P.C. 10 was first made with chrome yellow and carbon black. Production dope was iron oxide and carbon black= BROWN! First production S.E.5 were brown. Read Sagitarrious Rising by Cecil Lewis.

Thanks Dan-San!

This is interesting!
Earlier in this thread there was talk about green streaky Fokkers, brown streaky Fokkers, and yes even Fokkers with "Orange" streaks.
If you mix equal portions of green and orange, the end result is brown.
Just a thought!

Regards, FOKKERJ

[Romani]

Originally Posted by Welsh Dave

Note that the weights in the said Bill are round figures, and not always in proportion to the areas to be covered. The idea was probably to average the materials out over the airframe, and to prepare enough paint, varnish, dope etc, to cover the day's work. The figures might well be rounded up to allow for contingencies such as accidental spillage. That would leave some paint spare, and I suspect excess blue paint sometimes ended up, suitably diluted with varnish, on the uppersurfaces.

Excuse me, you are saying that if there was not enough olive paint to paint the upper surfaces, blue paint would be used instead?

Doesn't make any sense to me. Imagine another scenario, an Albatros DV in the factory, we have run out or mauve/green, what we do?

a) Go the paint warehouse for some more color
b) use leftover blue paint... they sez we paint the airplane, nothin' about wich colors.

Sorry, but no, military specs for camouflage are not whimsical but meant to ensure maximum productivity and economy of materials.

One sample in the IWM is a streaky turquoise and blue. I thought at first it might be from a Fokker, but it's actually uppersurface fabric from a DFW. The streaks are not as pronounced as Fokker's. Light blue had only recently been a common overall colour, particularly on two-seaters

Because those two-seaters flew as high as their camera lenses could allow. If you are more concerned with being spotted from below, or the same height, overall blue color is the best. Not so good if an airplane manages to be above you, but even then chances are the plane is above the clouds, then a light uppersurface color is less visible than a dark one.

Only an airplane that flies close to the ground, or wich is desired to be concealed while parked on the ground, needs to have it's uppersurfaces and fuselage sides painted in ground colors.

So a photo recon 2-seater may have been painted overall blue, but a contact patrol 2-seater would have been painted in ground cammo.


The DFW you mention would be the former case. And you said streaks of turquoise , wich is another blue, and clearly sounds like an attempt to improve the efficiency of the cammo by using a disruptive scheme to break the contours of the airplane. It will not do good if the enemy spotter is directly overhead, but would help for certain angles of vision.

EDIT: I mean, light blue is of no use if seen against the background of earth, but against the sky, even better than light blue is a disruptive scheme with a light blue as a base and some other sky color, darker on top of it)

and Jasta Boelcke responded to the specified change from reddish brown to lilac by applying light blue to the tops of their Albatrosse.

That's interesting, we would like to hear more about that. How was the light blue applied? overpainting the reddish brown leaving a green and blue bands cammo? that might work... for an airplane that flies over the sea. Regardless, I think that was just a field expedient at the unit level, and only a stopgap to prevent friendly fire incidents.

I hope you are not making that statement based on Hermann Frommherz "Blue Mouse" Albatros, wich was a personal custom paint job using paint that was available.

I ask, are there other pictures of Jasta 2 Albatros painted totally or partially in blue? I'd love to see somebody else having the same idea as von Schleich.

There is certainly enough precedent to make the occasional blue patch on a Triplane nothing out of the ordinary. Besides, a fast-climbing agile fighter would often present its planform against a misty, smoky horizon, so blue might even have been an advantage.

I'd say it would be very unlikely. I had the same reasoning and discarded it. Light blue on the uppersurfaces only makes sense if

1) painted overall blue for a high flying machine
2) fuselage sides painted blue while top wings of fuselage are a ground color to get the best of both worlds, but emphasis on not be seen from below or the same altitude
3) used in small dots and in combination with other colors in lozenge pattern. Regardless, note that the lozenges on top patters are dark blue, while you only see a bright blue on the undersurface pattern.

Furthermore, the rationale behind a camo scheme is to conceal the airplane when on the ground, or when it's flying level.

For example, take the DrI. The interplane struts are usually painted from factory a light blue. Why?

From the top, the struts are obscured by the wings, so the struts don't stand out. When seen from below, and the front the struts blend against the sky background. If the fuselage sides were painted light blue, the scheme would be all the more effective.

I am starting to think that the "green and blue mixture" of British reports could have this, the simplest, dumbest, explanation, the blue refers to the struts, and that's all. But I am not ruling the possibility of blue fuselage sides because that scheme is plausible and does work.


Light blue, as a top color in combination with another, doesn't work, and this is not my opinion but based on the examination of numerous camouflage schemes from both world wars.

We know from the Fokker "paint shop" photo that three paints were used for the streaky camo, and there are three shade ranges on the wing being "painted". Simplest solution would be:

As Dan-San Abbot put, only one paint, diluted to different consistency. Dark areas of streaky cammo is thik painted, lighter areas could be simply stained with thinned paint.

That's the most convincing reconstruction so far. I will add that in my opinion, there were no unpainted areas of clear doped linen left, but these were given at least a "wash" of diluted olive paint, being the overall effect dark streaks and pale green areas.

1. Clear varnish dyed olive or viridian.

2. The same, with added grey to darken it. Being neutral, the grey reduces colour saturation only slightly.

3. Varnish dyed dark grey, for adding to 1 and application over both clear doped fabric and the other two shades, creating extra dark streaks. Dark forward fuselages of Dr.Is appear to have a lot of this paint.

Problems are,

a) where do you get the grey from the bill of materials?

b) You are making it sound as (some) Dr.Is were camouflaged in grey and olive. Again, a plausible camo scheme, but I think you are working on a wrong premise.

I was the first (to my knowledge) that the unknown "Anilinfarbepulver" was a olive coloured dye, and that it turned brown with time due to oxidation of the aniline. My idea was ignored, DSA came up with the theory that the color powder was a mix of Yellow Chrome and Carbon Black, wich was plausible, and in view of his authority, I accepted, but he has came around and disowned that theory . Whatever its color, wether olive brown or olive green the consensus is that it came ready in the can, even if the color is not specified in the bill of materials.

DSA is adamant about the color being olive brown, and rightly so, because that's what can be observed in the existing samples. That there was not varnish overcoat eliminates one possible source for the hypothetical color shift from green to brown and only reinforces his position.

We all that believe the color was originally olive green, have interesting theories and more or less ingenious explanations, but they are as yet unverified hypothesis. DSA is not being stubborn, he's just stating what can be observed.

I don't buy the latest multicolor theory, because after viewing the photo you are talking about, I believe the darkest streaks you call grey is just very dark concentrated olive that looks greyish due to aging.

I stand on my theory that is oxidation of the aniline dye (wich turns reddish brown) wich causes the color shift from green to brown.

Reasons:

x) It's a very small quantity stretched thin, susceptible to get oxidated in a few weeks under intense sunlight


y) in the sample, the light colored streaks are brown while the dark grey streaks, having more dye, didn't oxidate as much and ended up "erdgrau" rather than brown

EDIT: I suddenly realized there's a simpler explanation, if the method of application of streaky olive is by thinning paint to the desired consistencty, then in the areas where it's most diluted (lightest) it looks browner because it's translucent and the olive green color blends with the yellowish clear doped linen background.


z) the fuselage portion closer to the engine was painted darker than the rest of the fuselage in anticipation of the oil staining of the rotary engine