Linen color for Voss F.I?

[Taz]

Dave- Forgot your photo. Here it is plus one of Dr.I 198/17.

Taz
Terry Phillips

FI-102-17_front detail.jpg

Dr.I 198 17 WN 1916 Jasta 14 Ltn Werner Newly Delivered Ur.II Axle Wing Detail Forum.jpg

[tcrean7828]

Hi Mate,

Any replys to my questions???

cul

tcrean7828

tom

[alex_revell]

Taz,
There you go! 'There was only one...' That should be. 'As far as we know'.
I don't worry about it one way or the other but don't like the ignoring of other evidence. Maybery's sighting; the recent diary evidence of - Rudenberg(?) I forget the exact name; and the many reports of triplanes by other - in some cases very experienced - pilots.
Yes, it may well have been cold at 8/9,000 feet on September 23, especially as it was the evening. But by the same reasoning it could be argued by a modern historian that everybody was wrong in thinking that they were fighting at 15/16,000 feet or above, in McCudden's, case at 19/20,000 feet. No one is allowed to fly in the RAF above 10,000feet without oxygen. And mountain climbers are having trouble breathing at that height, let alone flying and fighting.

[davecww1]

Thanks Taz, the information on the axle wing confirms my suspicion, and the photo will help me to mask it off. I have restudied your photos in Over The Front on the F.I differences, and believe the following to be correct, but just want to double check it with you to confirm that I am painting everything correctly for F.I 103.
The forward fuselage appears to be painted solid olive, but it is hard to see where the solid olive starts and the streaking begins since it is in the shadow of the center wing. Looking at the photo of F.I 101 without the wings it looks like a hard edged line even with the front of the lower wing attachment point. So I guess I will go with that.
Also the struts all appear to be turquoise, just hard to tell on the cabine and landing gear struts since they tend to be in shadow or highlighted by the sun, so I can't be positive.
The wheel covers were painted a solid color, I will choose olive to match my chosen cowl and front panel colors... But were the inner wheel covers the same color or maybe turquoise? Not sure on this one but I'll play it safe and go with the olive.
Thanks,
Dave

[Taz]

Dave- You got it right. All the struts were light blue, including the landing gear and tailplane struts. There was a straight demarcation line for solid olive on the forward fuselage of all three F.Is, most easily seen on F.I 101/17. Olive cowl and inside and outside wheel covers are one of the two probable color schemes. There are some mistakes in the OTF article, but on color the primary one is that the axle wing was solid olive on top, not streaked as the article states. The bottom wing crosses were painted over CDL or blue tinted dope (there is blue tinted dope, which would be translucent like clear dope, on Dr.I paint samples on bottom wing surfaces, but not top wing surfaces, another variable), not white paint. The streaks on the Dr.I fabric samples have been predominantly olive green with some brown streaks and some gray-black streaks, matching the factory paint shop photograph.

Alex- It is amazing, but there are no claims for Triplanes shot down between 23 September 1917 and 24 January 1918, when rewinged Dr.Is began showing up at the front. Wonder why that is? Paul Leaman states "...there were only two Fokker triplanes at the Front in September 1917, F.I 102/17 and F.I 103/17" in his excellent Fokker Dr.I Triplane. Of course, five claims were made against those two Triplanes, but that is not unusual. Alex Imrie says there were only two Triplanes at the Front in September and the first Dr.I was delivered to Jasta 15 for Gontermann in October, with a contingent going to JG I a little later. So we do not need an "as far as we know" because there was only one Triplane left at the Front on 23 September 1917. Factory records prove that fact. The Dr.I did not make it into combat until Dec 17/Jan 18. The factory records show four early Triplanes, one went to Austria, one was destructively tested, and two went to JG I for operational testing. That is all there were.

I will admit my analysis of McCudden's kills may have been a little overblown related to his observational abilities, but if he had been killed in the Voss fight, nobody would have written books about him. He would have been just another British ace with 13 kills.

Tom- Later, but will get to it.

Dan-San- The bleached linen could account for some color differences in the first four Triplanes compared to Dr.Is, even though these are not great in original photos, once the aircraft were painted. The fabric samples from Dr.Is are unbleached, but the color looks a lot more beige than gray to me, even on inside, undoped pieces. The analine powders were covered in the wet blending thread. The materials list does not specify color for the analine powder.

If there is anybody I have not chapped off, please let me know. I could use one friendly voice.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[alex_revell]

Taz,
No triplanes shot down between 23 Sept and Jan 1918. What does that prove? I'm not saying that there were numbers of triplanes at the front in
September/October 1917 merely that there is the possibility - note the word possibility - that there could have been more than two. In your reply you have not addressed the question of Maybery's sighting, or Rudenberg's diary, which came to light only recently, or the sightings by British pilots of other triplanes. A little anecdote of my own. Jeffs, who was shot down on 5th October 1917, told me in conversation how he hated seeing Hun triplanes in the air. How they looked like a Venitian blind going up. Not great evidence I know but just one other little strand in the overall picture. As you know the triplane was taken out of service in October because of technical problems and on page 55 of Alex's book he states that Fokker production never caught up with the demand and that 'insufficient numbers of triplanes were available early in 1918 completely to equip the twelve Jagdstaffeln of JGI-III even to the normal strength of fourteen aircraft each. At the beginning of the Spring offensive on March 21, none of these AOK fighter formations possssed a full triplane complement' . Later he states that 'in April as more triplanes became available'. So, one could argue that what with the technical problems and the failure of the Fokker production line there were very few triplanes for the British pilots to shoot down between Sept 17 and Jan 18, anyway. Please don't quote Paul's book. It is so full of errors. You've obviously not seen Alex's review of the book in Windsock. He found a vast numbers of errors in the photo captions alone, let alone the text.
Never entirely trust any factory records, especially those of Fokker. I still think you can't be dogmatic about these things. 'It seems that' or 'As far as we know' are still better, IMHO. If only as an insurance that one doesn't end up with egg on one's face when more information comes to light. By the way I hasten to add that this is a 'friendly voice'. I'm only playing devil's advocate in this and there is absolutely no animosity meant. We are having a discussion, not an argument.
Yes, I agree that if Mac had been killed in the Voss fight he would just have been another British airfighter with 13 victories. Wouldn't have had a book written about him?. Why not? Books have been written about people who achieved a lot less than that. No names, no pack drill.

[Southside Bucky]

Hi Taz.

Thank you for your gracious words of reconcilliation.

After re-reading the thread, I s'pose I'm not entirely without blame myself...It's made me realise that sometimes it can pay to wait a while, rather than shooting from the hip with an immediate reply. It definitely makes for a more considered response.

Whatever, I feel better now...It's kinda odd, but I've been feeling strangely out of sorts since our little dust up.

Now where were we?...Oh yeah, whadaya mean there were only two Triplanes at the front in September?

[Taz]

Bucky- I think that goes for me as well.

Alex- We have talked about sightings before. HE 100s reported as late as 1945, ME 109s in the South Pacific, etc. Are you referring to Bodenschatz' diary? I am not familiar with Rudenberg. Voss was gone on leave for ten days or so before 23 September and he probably allowed one or two highly qualified pilots to fly his aircraft, but not in combat. Most of the Triplane sightings were clustered around days when 102/17 and 103/17 were flying with MvR, Wolff, or Voss. 102/17 ~1-6 and 12-15 September and 103/17 ~1-13 and 23 September 1917. Voss was obviously the most active, since he likely shot down 10 aircraft with 103/17. MvR got two and Wolff none. The day Wolff was shot down, multiple aircraft sightings were reported in the same engagement although there was only one Triplane and Voss was on leave. I will credit 56 Sq for only seeing one Triplane, although aparently there was some confusion over whether it was a biplane or triplane when the fight was over, with a combat report of biplane scratched out and triplane inserted. Combat will make you misidentify things and McCudden's flight had not fought a Triplane before. For a new type, though, there was not much description of the aircraft, which is surprising. On an earlier sighting, a British pilot reported the upper wing extensions, stagger and spans increasing from bottom to top. Nothing like that from 56 Sq unless it went into a separate report.

I am afraid I have absolutely no belief in the extra Triplanes theory, regardless of who thought they saw one, and I have much more faith in the Fokker records and photographic record on the early Triplanes. Those Fokker records are very specific on experimental aircraft, which 102/17 and 103/17 were.

I am aware of nearly all of the photo mis-IDs and other mistakes in Paul's book, but that is no reason to dismiss it out of hand.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[davecww1]

Thanks for the info Taz,
Too cold to spray paint here today, but supposed to warm up next week a little. I airbrushed my new linen mix and the turquoise underside a couple of days ago, and applied a clear acrylic coat, so will do the olive next.
the photos look slightly darker than it does in person, but it gets the greyish-beige color I was looking for. Definately mdid not want to go too light, since the white cross fields stand out strongly from the streaked areas in the photos.
Well here it is so far. What do you guys think about this shade (I know that the colors on your screen will never match the actual model, but what the heck?)
Dave

[Taz]

Dave- Looks good to me. Have fun.

Alex- I have been in an altitude chamber numerous times and had no trouble functioning at 20,000+ ft. The highest I have been in an unpressurized aircraft was 42,000 ft, where an emergency in an F-111F required depressuriztion. Oxygen masks were on and set to 100% when we dumped cabin pressure. Yes, it does snow in the cockpit when you do that. Time of useful consciousness varies widely with individuals, just like g tolerance does, and some individuals can still function for relatively long periods of time above 25,000 ft. Cold, however, is another ball of wax. The human head is a radiator of heat and flying at even medium altitude unprotected with an 80-100 mph wind with no head gear will put you in hypothermia very quickly. I seriously doubt Voss was up there in early autumn with no head gear, regardless of McCudden's impression he was.

Taz
Terry Phillips