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Camouflage and Markings Topics related to the camouflage and markings of WWI aircraft

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Old 29 December 2007, 08:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Jacobs Fok 450/17 sept 28 1918

Hi all,

A few questions regarding fok 450/17 and Jacobs kills on sept. 28 1918.

First was the plane painted with thin white crosses without the devils head or was it repainted by then. ?

And on sept 28th I see Jacobs claims 2 se5a? Any ideas on what sqd they may have been from?

Thanks for the help.
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Last edited by Tim West; 30 December 2007 at 08:47 AM. Reason: me'sa soooo stupid
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Old 30 December 2007, 11:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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First 450/17 was overpainted black with broad crosses and the god of the north wind personal motif. This was done in March 1918. In about June the "god of the north wind" was transferred to his Fokker D.VII 365/18. It was then that the thin white crosses wear photographed. It is not known how long this machine was used with all white crosses and may have been an interim before black centers were applied. No images in the public domain show black centers having been applied.

Jacobs also flew Fok. Dr.I 470/17 at this time it was noted to be all black as well and have had the white, angled corner crosses (no end borders to the cross legs) Jacobs called these "open ended framed crosses" in his combat reports. These types of crosses were seen on the early Fokker D.VII series of the type 365/18 had come from. Note the similar crosses seen on 244/18 & 378/18.

By Aug-Sept. 1918 we see Dr.I 450/17 in another line up with Fokker D.VII types of Jasta 7. It was evidently repainted again back to its earlier scheme of overall black with broad crosses and the god of the north wind being applied.


Dr.I 450/17 was lost on Oct 3 1918 in an early morning raid by allied fighters. Jacobs laments the loss of his old beloved triplane. And is seen with Hauptmann Milch and several others after the combat standing infront of the intact Dr.I 470/17 (with the opened ended crosses.) The god of the north wind was now applied to 470/17 according to combat reports.

On the British Se 5a types I'll have to check with my notes. Stewart Taylor's comments may have the information too so I'll check there.

I know some of this information is contrary to popular beliefs but it is based on facts and photographic interpretation.

Last edited by StephenLawson; 30 December 2007 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 30 December 2007, 03:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Tim West;360603]
And on sept 28th I see Jacobs claims 2 se5a? Any ideas on what sqd they may have been from?QUOTE]

Hi Tim,

For a start, both TJWC and TSTB have 41 Sqn RAF as the possible unit engaged by Jasta 7 on the 28th. No less than five pilots from 41 Sqn became POWs, with one FTL (crashed). Sorry, the true identities of the pilots brought down by Jacobs are not listed in these references, as they could be any two of these six pilots.

I am sure that Stephen and others can add to this

Regards,

Darren
 
Old 7 January 2008, 02:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Guys, thank you for the tips. Mr. Lawson, your help on this profile has been great.

I have done a scheme for 450 and will be now focusing on who the se5's.

Thanks again!
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Old 3 February 2008, 06:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Greetings Mr. West,

Essentially I have the British order of battle but also the writings of the great historian Stewart Taylor (Good Fellow that he is.) The identity of these combatants is listed only in their aircraft type. Though I have one lead on some combat reoprts that I am following up. More later hopefully.

Darren thank you for the kind words.
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Old 7 April 2008, 09:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I just want to post this image of the "god of the North Wind" to see if anyone else agrees that the wings of the god/devil might be purple as I read in one of my researches.

Any other comments or information (such as the FOKKER) logo on the rudder?

Thanks!



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Old 7 April 2008, 11:00 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hi Art:

Yes, the rudder is incorrect. That logo was never used on the Dr.I's. Taz has posted several photos of this before and Greg's new triplane book has all the detail on the markings you need. Also since this is 450/17 it would have had the later style markings with the green strip in the lower section of the rudder.


Close-up Photo from the Peter Grosz Collection.

Now the photo I have does show it all white so the green section must have been repaint along with the all cross changes.

Now I only have the vary low res photo of this so if someone has the high res of 450/17 can you let me know.

Lloyd...
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Old 7 April 2008, 09:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks a ton, LL!

I'm curious about a "hi-res" photo. I've seen the image posted by Rosebud on his website of Early Aviation Photos:



Is this the "hi-res"?

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Old 8 April 2008, 05:54 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi Art:

This is the same photo I have and it is a low res photo. A hi res photo will show more detail up close. I have to check but this may be Greg's, Alex's or Manfred's photo. The Hi res photo would be a couple of meg's.

Lloyd...
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Old 8 April 2008, 07:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iart7 View Post
I just want to post this image of the "god of the North Wind" to see if anyone else agrees that the wings of the god/devil might be purple as I read in one of my researches.

Any other comments or information (such as the FOKKER) logo on the rudder?

Thanks! Art
Good reproduction. Wing edging was red. No Fokker logo. This scheme was first displayed on 450/17 by March 1918. Later it was painted over with just the white narrow crosses in the normal locations. Then by Sept. 1918 according to photographic evidence it was returned to this scheme. Then it was destroyed on Oct. 3, 1918.

Last edited by StephenLawson; 9 April 2008 at 03:40 PM.
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