Original Nieuport 28 Aileron Found!

gipsymoth236k · 4 March 2008, 05:06 PM

Nieuport 28 Markings Experts!

I just acquired this original (American cockade) Nieuport 28 right aileron. I see from my research that this roundel is 'usually' located a bit closer to the bottom wing's undersurface wingtip - see black & white photo. But this roundel is located a little closer inward from the more standard outer wingtip location. Could there have been such marking variations in other American Nieuport 28s? If so, does anyone have photos similar to this variation detail?

Thanks, Gary Sewall

albapfalzd3 · 5 March 2008, 07:42 AM

appears to be considerably smaller than the one on the aircraft photo. That could account for the discrepancy.

Roy

Dan_San_Abbott · 5 March 2008, 04:50 PM

Gary:
One question is answered, the cockade is in French cockade colors. I would like to see the camouflaged side of the aileron. The cockades are what I thought they might be. Is the serial number on the aileron? I would like to match it with the Aero Squadron and the pilot. Possible Gary? I have the Model Expo kit. I will be making it when I can find the time.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

gipsymoth236k · 5 March 2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Gary:
One question is answered, the cockade is in French cockade colors. I would like to see the camouflaged side of the aileron. The cockades are what I thought they might be. Is the serial number on the aileron? I would like to match it with the Aero Squadron and the pilot. Possible Gary? I have the Model Expo kit. I will be making it when I can find the time.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

Attached are more photos. This aileron just arrived at my home, but I am on a trip right now and therefore haven't examined it yet, but will be home Friday to do so.

As you can see it is covered in the standard CDL on the undersurface with "TYPE 28" stenciled on the fabric, but I don't clearly see the standard American two-tone tan and olive green camoflage dope on the upper surface as is shown in this attached black and white photo of an American Nieuport 28's aileron, it just seems to have the olive green colored dope on top, but I'll know more on Friday...

It is indeed marked as an AMERICAN cockade (from outer: red-blue-white), but why do you say that it is marked as French (from outer: red-white-blue)???

Thanks, Gary Sewall

karrart · 6 March 2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gipsymoth236k

Dan-San,

It is indeed marked as an AMERICAN cockade (from outer: red-blue-white), but why do you say that it is marked as French (from outer: red-white-blue)???

Thanks, Gary Sewall

The ring order is American, but those colors do look French- that blue escpecially from what I can tell on my monitor.
Robert Karr
OLD BIRDS STAYING ALIVE - THE AVIATION ART OF ROBERT KARR

Dan_San_Abbott · 6 March 2008, 05:20 PM

Gary:
Let me clarify my meaning, in the French colors of vermillion, white and horizon blue, not in the French order of colors.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

brisfitworks · 3 April 2008, 07:39 AM

Unrelate to markings but very relate to your prize!

Can you do me a big favour?

Our museum has a N.28 replica and it has stiffness problem with the aileron torque tube in tight turns - stick forces go way up and aileron deflection is lost in the twist of the tube. I know the 1" diameter from the replica plans is wrong - my N.17 info proves that but I don't know the diamater and wall thickness of the aileron torque tube on the N.28.

It looks like the tube is still there but cut off at the panels root.

Is it too much trouble for you to give me outaide diameter and wall thinckess?

It would be a huge help! It would allow me to calculate what stiffness it originally had and let me design a fix fto retrofit to our replica.

Many sincere thanks in adance,

Bill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gipsymoth236k

Nieuport 28 Markings Experts!

I just acquired this original (American cockade) Nieuport 28 right aileron. I see from my research that this roundel is 'usually' located a bit closer to the bottom wing's undersurface wingtip - see black & white photo. But this roundel is located a little closer inward from the more standard outer wingtip location. Could there have been such marking variations in other American Nieuport 28s? If so, does anyone have photos similar to this variation detail?

Thanks, Gary Sewall

Taz · 3 April 2008, 09:29 AM

Gary- The world's authority on the Nieuport 28 is Ted Hamady, whose book on the 28 should be out very soon.

Seems logical the N.28 would have French paint colors in the American markings order. They built them to order for the Americans. Are there any N.28 relics with different paint colors on their cockades? The French never bought the type.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Cigogne · 3 April 2008, 11:04 AM

Alan Toelle would be a better choice for anything marking related or?

gipsymoth236k · 3 April 2008, 05:03 PM

Bill,

Regarding my original fabric covered Nieuport 28 aileron, the 33mm (1 5/16") diameter tubular spar seems to have a paper-thin wall thickness of about 0.5mm to 0.75mm. I can measure the wall exactly if desired because someone had long ago severed the aileron from the bottom wing by sawing it off at the aileron spar's meeting with the adjacent bottom wing rib section! The Schuler Nieuport 28 reproduction's aileron spar is given as 1" (25.4mm) diameter with an 0.049" (1.2mm) wall thickness. This seems to be quite adequate, I assume? But maybe it is indeed the source for some torque tube flexing of the aileron spar during flying loads?

An interesting and unexpected feature is the presence of a braided copper wire strung all along and tacked to the inside edges of the triangular wooden trailing edge! I've seen this feature before on the NASM's original Albatros D.Va! I assume this design feature is to prevent airframe static electricity buildup?

I have found that between the outer-most aileron ribs 2 & 3 there exists a diagonal rib support that is not shown in any of the contemporary drawings that I presently have, but indeed this diagonal aileron support rib is present in my original N28 aileron as seen through a large tear hole in the original fabric; in the original NASM N28 aileron; and through the upper fabric surface detail shown in original N28 black and white photos that I have.

NIEUPORT FABRIC EXPERTS: The bottom surface is CDL, taped, and clear doped with American tri-color roundels having been hand-painted using thin pencil line traced circle guides. The top surface has olive green dope applied over the CDL fabric. The factory applied black stencil "TYPE 28" is still clearly visible. The fabric is still in original and excellent shape minus some small tear holes, and the internal frame structures, like the aileron trailing edge, shows absolutely NO sign of any fabric related distortion from the often seen effects of dope and fabric shrinking, especially after 90 years! Tiny fabric stitching is seen around various fabric areas, like fabric reinforcing patches which are also doped and located around the aileron hinge openings. Fabric covering over the aileron ribs have very tiny-edged "pinked" rib fabric reinforcing tapes, and the fabric is rib-stitched with (waxed?) linen cord, similar to today's practice.

If desired, I can measure the 33mm spar's EXACT wall thickness, or any other information that can be taken off this rare and original Nieuport 28 artifact if anyone would like more detail...?

Regards, Gary Sewall