Gotha G.V Day Lozenge

[LedZepplane]

I was thumbing through the “GOTHA!” book, by Peter Grosz, and I realized that the lighter day-lozenge colors for the early Gotha G.Vs, are nowhere to be found. I’m curious to know what the Gotha day lozenge colors are. I was told that they are actually the standard lower five color lozenge used on fighters. Is this correct?

Danny

[Dan_San_Abbott]

LedZepplane:
I have gone over the photos of the G.Va and G.Vb aircraft in the Albatros Special. "Gotha". I expected to find the dark night printed fabric, but no it appears to be the five color day intermediate dark pattern seen on day Classes C, Cl, and D aircraft . Photo 63 on page 45, seen on Go.Vb 733/17 in the foreground. The others Go.G.Va and Go.G.Vb in the photo do appear to have the night dark printed fabric on the wings and tails.
Photo 64 at the bottom of page 45, Go.G.Vb 917/18 also appears to have the fuselage painted in the colors of the day intermediate dark pattern.
I would surmise that at least, production orders for 25 Go.G.Vb 725/17 to 749/17 and order for 25 Go.G.Vb 913/18 to 937/18 were camouflaged for day bombing operations and covered with five color day intermediate printed fabric. The fuselage and lower wing center-section were painted in the matching colors. The Go.G.Vb machine in production orders inJuly and August 1918 for 15 Go.G.Vb 1450/18-1464/18 and 15 Go.G.Vb 1778/18 to 1792/18 may also have been finished in the day bombing camouflage scheme, but this is only a guess. The Go.G.VII and Go.G.IX twin engine fast bombers in orders and production were scheduled for night bombing.
Blue skies,
Dan-san

[LedZepplane]

Howdy, Mr. Abbott:

Thank you for your reply, but I think I need to rephrase my question/s:

1. Was the standard day, five color “fighter” lozenge used on the early Gotha G.Vs (like Gotha G.V 670/16 for example?)

2. Was both the lower-lighter lozenge, and upper-darker lozenge used respectively on this early batch of Gotha G.Vs? A YES or No answer will be sufficient. All the best!

Sincerely: Danny

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ledzepplane:
I don't believe Gotha used printed fabrics prior the late 1917 order listed in the previous posting. The first October 1917 order for 25 Go.G.Va 700/17 to 724/17, were covered with the five color night pattern which was very dark.
All the the 1916 orders had painted finishes, first in the Sky Camouflage scheme. Commencing with the 25 Go.G.III 375/16 to 399/16, ordered in May 1916, Gotha started camouflaging the top surfaces in very dark green, with sky under surfaces.
The Gotha built Go.G.IV machines were painted in an overall Sky camouflage Scheme.
The first order for 20 Go.G.V 664/16 to 683/16, the wings were covered with dark intermediate dark pattern on the wings, and tailplane. The fuselage, fin, rudder and nacelles were painted the sky camouflage.
The Gotha G.V 900/16 to 979/16 order were camouflaged in an dark shades of dark blue/blue indigo/blue violet/ blue green.
When bombers were covered with the day intermediate or night very dark printed fabric on all upper and lower surfaces of the wings and tails.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ledzepplane:I don't believe Gotha used printed fabrics prior the late 1917 order listed in the previous posting. The first October 1917 order for 25 Go.G.Va 700/17 to 724/17, were covered with the five color night pattern which was very dark.All the the 1916 orders had painted finishes, first in the Sky Camouflage scheme.* Commencing with the 25 Go.G.III 375/16 to 399/16, ordered in May 1916, Gotha started camouflaging the top surfaces in very dark green, with sky under surfaces. The Gotha built Go.G.IV machines were painted in an overall Sky camouflage Scheme.The first order for 20 Go.G.V 664/16 to 683/16, the wings and tailplane were covered with dark intermediate dark pattern. The fuselage, fin, rudder and nacelles were painted the sky camouflage.The Gotha G.V 900/16 to 979/16 order were camouflaged in an dark shades of dark blue/blue indigo/blue violet/ blue green.When bombers were covered with the day intermediate or night very dark printed fabric on all upper and lower surfaces of the wings and tails.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[LedZepplane]

Mr. Abbott:
The photo that should be studied is the Gotha G.V on page 21, photo 47 in the “GOTHA!” book. This Gotha clearly shows that a lighter color lozenge was used on this early G.V day-bomber. I’m also certain that a lighter color lozenge was used on Gotha G.V 670/16 and was definitely PRINTED fabric, and definitely was not painted on, nor was it the darker night lozenge (I don’t know why anybody would want to cover a day bomber with a dark-night camouflage anyway?) Let me put it in a generic way…was the wings of these first Gotha G.Vs day bombers covered in the standard “dark-day upper” and the “lighter-day lower” like the Smithsonian’s Albatros D.Va?
The confusion came when someone told me that these early Gotha G.Vs had the wings covered (top and bottom of both wings) with the single, lighter-bottom day, Albatros D.V lozenge only. That doesn’t sound right. Ray Rimell gives a little hint (with a little trapdation I suspect) in the back of the “GOTHA!” book were he discribs the wing/s camouflage of Gotha G.V 670/16:

“…the wings (and possibly the horizontal tailplanes) covered with five-color day printed fabric with their respective rib tapes…” (Emphasis added)

Two things here: Rimell describes “five-color day printed fabric” along “with their respective rib taps” which is an indication that the lozenge on this bomber had an upper and lower light-dark configuration just like the fighters! I just want to substantiate this. After all, how many “five-color day lozenge patterns were they?


Sincerely: Danny

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ledzepplane:
I have spent about a hour studying Photos 47 on page 21 and Photo 63 on page 45. I agree it is five color day light lower pattern fabric on both photos. The rib tapes on photo 47 are not salmon pink tapes, the tape is white. The tapes on Photo 63 are cut strips of the lower five color day fabric. The rudder on go.G.Vb 733/16, photo 63, page 45, provided the clues on the which pattern the fabric was. The dark polygon is greyish ruby.
There are three day five color pattern, 1. Day intermediate dark, most common. This pattern is use on upper and side surfaces of all day aircraft. 2. Day dark. This pattern is used on day aircraft on the top and side surfaces. When used on night bombers, it is used on all surfaces. This dark pattern was superceded in 1918, with a very dark five color pattern. 3. Lower light pattern. This is used on the under surfaces with either pattern 1 or 2 on day aircraft.
In regard to Go.G.V 670/16. If photo 44 on page 20 is the basis of Ray Rimell's assertion the the wings are covered with printed fabric, I would have mt doubts. I have checked "The Sky On Fire" and found nothing there that describes the Gotha G.V 670/16.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[LedZepplane]

"The rib tapes on photo 47 are not salmon pink tapes, the tape is white."

Now that I have the Lozenge question out of the way let me move on to the rib tapes; you totally caught me off guard with the “white" rib-tapes. Was white types actually applied to some Gothas or any other aircraft for that matter? I suspected the pale rib-tapes on the G.V on page 21, photo 47 in the GOTHA! book to be light blue-gray?

Danny

[Dan_San_Abbott]

LedZepplane:
Let be be a little more specific, this is not cut strips of fabric, but woven linen tape, about 25 mm wide. The tape color is probably buff colored, is my best estimate.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[LedZepplane]

Thanks for clearing that up Dan-San that's new to me and will take it into consideration.
Thank you kindly for being so patient with me and taking the time to study photographs and related text of the subject Gotha/s in question, you have been a great help to me. All the best, Dan!

Sincerely: Danny (AKA, LedZepplane)