More about Halberstadt CL.II camouflage

[BLOWHARD]

In reference this thread;
Halberstadt CL.II profile
I've been working on a digital profile painting of the CL.II.
I've decided this is probably the better sub forum to post some camouflage tests I've made.
I'm still working on getting a more accurate stipple texture but that's more a conversation of technique.
I'm more interested knowing thoughts about color and density here.
Right now I'm of the opinion that the planes had the colors applied (sans yellow ocher) directly over the varnished yellow plywood and light grey painted metal parts. This may not be correct but in looking at the few good close-up photos it seems that the stipple is fairly even. Would yellow ocher have been stippled over the yellow varnished wood? It seems strange to apply yellow ocher paint to an already yellow varnished wood fuselage. Reports site that the undersides are of yellow, if this yellow is the varnished plywood then would there be a need to paint the yellow onto the fuselage at all? That leaves the metal, no yellow ocher color on the metal? That leads me to think, seeing as though the stippling seems dark over a lighter base color, either the fuselage and metal parts were painted in yellow ocher or the colors did not include the yellow at all but that the yellow is the varnished wood underneath.
Of course the stippling that shows up dark in the B&W photos could include a yellow color that shows dark on the film.
Not all planes have darker looking metal parts under the stipple. But some do seem to show that they are a slightly different tone than the wooden parts of the fuselage.
At least that's my thinking now. I've come up with the following samples:


These are using the earlier and later colors Dan-San Abbott describes in this earlier thread-
Halberstadt CL.II camouflage, yellow?
But did I select the correct colors? I used the RGB numbers from the HUGE thread on printed fabric colors here at the Aerodrome.
-early production batch-
dull violet = 15C4 - 165/140/166
light green = 24C3 - 135/164/160
blue = 22D5 - 111/142/160
-late production batch-
dull violet = 14D3 - 123/112/120
light brown = ?
light green = 28D4 - 128/139/114
blue = 23D4 - 86/115/128
Of course the "pale grey" is an unknown color to me, at least in RGB terms, as is the brown color used on the later version.
And the density? Some CL.II fuselages appear to be medium to even a light tone, while others are much more dark. But the stipple seems to be about as dense in all the photos. If the colors are similar or the same as the printed fabric colors then the only way to get dark or lighter tones, or more rich colors are to change the density of the stipple. But the photos suggests the amount of stipple density.

Thoughts, ideas, corrections? Dan-San, I hope you have some guidance here.
Jerry Boucher, I'm hoping you'll have more to add too.
Anyone or any other ideas are welcome.

[JerryBoucher]

I guess that yellow paint was needed because just leaving bare patches of the yellow varnish underneath would create patches of shininess within the overall matte effect of the scheme itself. Another thing to bear in mind when looking at photos is that it's very hard sometimes to estimate how much dirt and other similar stuff is affecting the overal appearance.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Blowhard:
The Halb.Cl.II plywood fuselages were finished in two finishes both of five colors. The early finish was the five colors used on the five color printed fabric, and was applied to the fuselage top and sides and top of the center-section by some means of stippling. The under side of the fuselage and center-section were shellacked and varnish plywood. The five colors are:
Oriental blue, 22D5; Greyish magenta, 15D4; Dull green, 25D3: Greyish ruby, 12D5 and Ochre, 5C6.

The upper surface of the wings, tailplane, both sides of the rudder and the wheel covers were covered with the five color loer printed polygon linen fabric. The rib and edge taping on the wings was with cut strips, about 20 to 25 mm wide, of the lower five color printed fabric. The ailerons ribs, tailplane and rudder ribs were not taped.
The under surface of the wings and tailplane were covered with plain unbleached linen fabric. This applies to Serial numbers, C.2825/17 to
C.2924/17and C.5675/17 to C.5774/17.

Commencing with serial number C.6300/17 and all subsequent numbers, the fuelage and center-section were stippled in five intermediate dark colors of:
Dull blue, 23D4; Greyish magenta,14E3; Dull blue, 23E4; Dull green, 28E4 and
Dark blonde, 5D4. The bottom of the center-section and the fuselage were shellacked and varnished. The upper surface of the wings and wheel covers were covered with the five color intermediate dark pattern linen fabric, with matching rib tapes.
The lower surface of the wings and tailplane were covered with the light lower five color printed linen fabric, with matching rib tapes.
I was wondering, do you have Schlachtflieger! ? It is totally described in detail on page 141 with illustrations on pages 196 and 198.

Blue skies,
Dan-San

[BLOWHARD]

Dan-San,
Yes, I do have Schlachtflieger!, and it's a great book. I also have a number of you color copies of the paintings used in the book. Your paintings are excellent but I think I'm searching for something more in-depth as far as the fuselage finish is concerned. I need to find a way to approximate how the paint was applied, or at least come up with my own guess at how it was done.
About that point, now I'm even more confused. Reading what you said in your original post (linked above), what you have said above and what is written in Schlachtflieger, there are a number of differences that I would like to clear up in my mind.
First, you state the colors used on the fuselage are taken from the 5 color fabric, lower light colors for the first batch, and 5 color intermediate dark color for the second batch. So far, so good?
In your earlier post you describe the first production batch fuselage colors as-

stippled in four colors, dull violet, light green, yellow ochre and blue

In Schlachtflieger, you wrote that the first production batch fuselage colors as
"...light blue, rose, light violet, greenish grey and ocher. Irregular polygon patterns were sprayed with merging edges and the whole over-sprayed in a splatter of light blue flecks."
And above,

The early finish was the five colors used on the five color printed fabric, and was applied to the fuselage top and sides and top of the center-section by some means of stippling. The under side of the fuselage and center-section were shellacked and varnish plywood. The five colors are:
Oriental blue, 22D5; Greyish magenta, 15D4; Dull green, 25D3: Greyish ruby, 12D5 and Ochre, 5C6.

So, for certain, 5 colors are used on the first production batch and the five colors are derived from the 5 color lower light fabric, correct?
After working on a solution for my profile painting and then reading your description in Schlachtflieger; "Irregular polygon patterns were sprayed with merging edges and the whole over-sprayed in a splatter of light blue flecks."
I'm intrigued by this idea of an over-all stipple applied over the sprayed colors. Is this still a possibility? Or were ALL colors stippled?
Could it be a possibility that the ocher color or plywood could be a base for the other colors to be stippled on? Surely the photos show what appears to be a lighter color with a darker stipple over it.
Aside from getting a few of the colors wrong, what do you think of my examples above, at least as far as the application? Do you believe I'm at least in the ball park for the over-all look are am I way off?

Jerry, I don't even want to get into dirt yet I think I'll keep the dirt and weathering as an extra camouflage to hide that fact that I don't know how the camouflage should really look

[BLOWHARD]

Any closer? It looks more plausible to me. These are both with the ocher/dark blonde colors as a base coat.


Dan-San? Jerry?
Aside from needing a little more of the base ocher/blonde showing through I think this might do unless I can come up with something better.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by JerryBoucher

I guess that yellow paint was needed because just leaving bare patches of the yellow varnish underneath would create patches of shininess within the overall matte effect of the scheme itself. Another thing to bear in mind when looking at photos is that it's very hard sometimes to estimate how much dirt and other similar stuff is affecting the overal appearance.

Hi Jerry,

I always assumed that First World War paints and varnishes were a matt finish, but I have been told that all WW1 paints and varnishes were in fact gloss. I know this seems unlikely, but if you look closely at WW1 German and Allied aeroplane photos, you sill see that very often, even in service, there is at least some gloss left in the paint and / or varnish, often finishes in service were close to full gloss. I don't think the gloss finish was as perfect as the gloss you can achieve with modern paints, but it is still reasonably glossy. I am happy to be corrected ...

[JerryBoucher]

But I'm assuming a difference between the gloss of a varnish and the possible gloss of the paint itself, and no doubt the paint (being on the topmost layer) would begin to lose it's gloss first.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Sure, you're probably right. As we probably all know, in service, the finish was not always glossy. It often became duller, as would be expected when in use and as you say you could then have a situation where the varnish could have more gloss than the paint covering it. Not knowing anything about the research carried out, has any useful information been able to be gained by studying any of the existing original Halberstadts?

[JerryBoucher]

We'd also have to weigh up how much effect dirt, oil and other factors from the normal operational life of the machine would affect the paint and varnish, and how it appears in photos.

[BLOWHARD]

I had planned on getting detailed but not THAT detailed Maybe I can put a small highlight on each speck of paint?
Seriously though, on a really LARGE scale digital model you could do that with a bump map and careful material settings.